wet environment clothing

I’m going to sorta hijack your question and ask an additional one.
After enjoying a day of water in its various forms moving up and down the freezing point I was wondering if anyone has any experience with the patagonia infurno/buffalo jacket/montane exterme smock or eight type jacket system. They are supposed to be very quick drying super wicking but not like goretex.
Maybe a UK member. This might be Erin’s and my solution.

>Conditions: Cold and wet, bushwhacking, >packrafting.

Wool, wool and more wool. Primaloft for “high loft” insulating clothing. Polypropylene is also very solid for long underwear in cold wet conditions.

Raingear? If you wear a lot of wool, it might not matter what raingear you use. No, joking. Well, half joking. Sounds like youre going to get wet no matter what you do.

I would go in layers:

Layer one: wool or polypropylene long underwear

Layer two: wool pants and long sleeved, button up wool “jac shirt.” If you get overheated you can unbutton. If you get cold, you button it up. I dont like wool sweaters cause you cant unbutton the front.

Layer three: Primaloft insulated “Belay” style parka

Headgear: Wool watch cap

Raingear: Something reliable and proven.

Avoid goose down. For anything. Maybe consider a Primaloft filled sleeping bag.

If you cant help being wet, why be cold too? Cold, wet and tired is the worst combination in the backcountry.

Vlad

I’ve found that synthetic wicking fabrics (like polypro or polyester) are fine in conditions where I’m trying to dry out, but when I’m getting continually soaked, a polypro shirt only makes me colder. If I’m not wearing my insulation, I just wear the raingear.
So I’m curious to hear the reasoning behind bringing a base layer.

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If you wear quality wool long underwear, you will find that you arent as cold if you get wet. You will find many of your being cold problems will go away.

Vlad

Insulation:
I’ve generally used fleece for this. The main reason is that fleece drains (not wicks) water really well, particularly when it’s not hemmed, and cut to have pointy edges at the cuffs. Leaves a lot less water for me to evaporate out of it when it’s soaked. But a lot of the other synthetic insulation is warmer for its weight than fleece, which makes it attractive.
Has anyone tested how well synthetic warm garments (like the patagonia micropuff style stuff) drain water?
(not relying on a waterproof coating to keep water out, but actually draining water from the bottom when they’re soaked through).

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Wool and Primaloft are warmer than fleece. And Primaloft is a lot lighter than fleece. Wind doesnt cut thru wool like it will cut thru synthetic fleece.

Vlad

Erin –

Take a look at this article we published last summer:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/wet_weather_performance_down_vs_synth_vests.html

It may not address your questions directly, becuase it mostly focuses on a comparison of down and synthetics, but you may find it interesting reading.

Don

Hi Erin – here’s a list of various articles that will keep you busy regarding wet weather hiking clothing and sleep gear.

Also you might want to give Roman a holler, and he’ll give you some insight on a new clothing and sleep system he tried on his Arctic trek in June.

Ryan,

Thanks for putting this list in one spot.

In making the clothing and sleep system for my January AT Thru-Hike start I have read and re-read most of these same articles and reviews.

I am sold on Pertex Quantum with Polarguard Delta as my insulation. I have all the Pertex Quantum I need but to keep my weight as low as possible I will use light silk for the the liner for most items. I will go with several layers all of which will use a synthetic insulation. I have the best synthetic insulations you can get to test with and then decide if any are better than Polarguard Delta.

Wool and Primaloft are warmer than fleece. And Primaloft is a lot lighter than fleece. Wind doesnt cut thru wool like it will cut thru synthetic fleece.

Vlad

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Let me be more specific here:

Wool and Primaloft are warmer when WET or damp compared to fleece. Nothing has the reputation for keeping you warm when wet or damp as wool.

When kept dry, I have no idea which is warmer, wool, Primaloft or synthetic fleece. Although my educated guess would be wool or Primaloft.

Also, Primaloft dries out so fast, its ridiculous. I mean it dries out lickety split.

Vlad

A few comments based on over 30 years of UK experience:

If you are exposed to continued wet weather for several days you will get wet. No matter how good your waterproof, there are holes for your head and hands; water will get in. Therefore clothing should be lightweight and able to dry rapidly.

The pertex/pile system, introduced by Buffalo and now made by quite a few companies works extremely well. However, it is also very warm and heavy (Montane Extreme smock 31oz without hood). I find the trousers to be far too hot to move in. Lighter versions are available (RAB vapour-Rise, Montane Duality), but I’ve not found these to offer any advantage over a thin fleece and a pertex windshirt.

Paramo clothing is a better solution to cold/wet conditions, being waterproof but far more breathable than any membrane. The disadvantage is warmth and weight (Velez smock 30oz). I find it too warm above about 40degF, but others happily use it year round. It is not as warm as the pertex/pile systems.

With both pertex/pile and Paramo, I do not need anything other than a base layer, even when stopped for short periods. A synthetic high-loft garment makes more sense than down in continual wet conditions, although I have used down without any problems. As the insulation layer is only needed when stopped, are you really going to be just sitting in the rain or under a shelter of some sort?

I have only used down sleeping bags and have never had any problem at all.

Thanks Neil, I was looking for an alternative to changing shells all day when we are really getting hammered up in the North Cascades and that many climbers in Scotland were using this instead of “waterproof/breathable”.

I am a PNW native. For years I believed the “don’t use down” theory..until I questioned it. And yes, I use mostly down now. The trick is protecting your gear. When hiking, I don’t wear the down. The down is for camp use. I have no synthetic bags anymore. My down jacket has a water shedding cover, so does my down vest. Even my down booties for winter use have that (I own 3 pairs: socks, tent booties and outdoor booties with soles.)
I love wool socks, hats and gloves.
Most of all, because the wool and down heat up fast. Inside my tent, I am not worried about getting my stuff wet-and I pack my down bag carefully in my pack.
Now, during hiking I have a fleece hoodie I wear often, that is light and packable. It is just enough to stay warm. Over it goes my GTX Paclite jacket by Wild Roses.
I have a system for hiking in the rain, for getting in the tent, and not bringing in the wetness. Even works with a whiny child next to you when it is 33* out.
My son has basically the same setup.
We often hike for long periods in the rain here, and no issues so far-even during coastal drenchers in Feburay.

Paramo clothing is a better solution to cold/wet conditions, being waterproof but far more breathable than any membrane. The disadvantage is warmth and weight (Velez smock 30oz). I find it too warm above about 40degF, but others happily use it year round. It is not as warm as the pertex/pile systems.

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I read about Paramo in Chris Townsend’s most recent backpacking book. It was very interesting, I had never heard of it. I ordered their literature and it does sound good. I’d like to know more about it and hear from Paramo users as it sounds very unique for the cold, wet, windy type environs.

Vlad

Thanks for the thoughts everyone.

For my uses, the insulation itself needs to deal with water. It’s not just for camp (I have a sleeping bag there). I find I need it most when packrafting (often very wet, not so much exertion as hiking, harder to stay warm).

Wool vs. synthetic fleece vs. primaloft:
Tell me if any of this is wrong…
Wool – feels warm when wet, cuts wind, but can absorb a lot of weight in water.
Synthetic fleece – feels warm when wet (maybe not as much as wool? haven’t checked), doesn’t cut wind, absorbs less water.
Primaloft – lighter per amount of warmth than any of the other two, but I haven’t got any info on what happens when you jump in a river with it.

I’m more interested in draining than drying. It’s not so hard to get warm when conditions go from wet to dry. Harder when it’s staying wet for awhile…

Arctic 1000 clothing:
I got a chance to look at Roman’s gear before he left on that trip, and the insulation looked neat. However, that wasn’t a packrafting trip, and the arctic is a relatively dry place (comparted to say, southesat Alaska in November). Haven’t yet asked him if he’s jumped in a river with it.

Paramo:
I’ve never heard of this before, but will look into it.

-Erin
http://www.groundtruthtrekking.org/WildCoast.html (Seattle to Aleutians trip)
http://www.aktrekking.com/trips.html (past Alaska trips)

Erin, you have way more experience in the cold and wet than I do. Like Vlad, I am a big fan of wool. As much as I would like to attribute another positive quality to wool, I have to disagree with the “cuts wind” comment. The ability of a garment to block the wind has everything to do with its construction and little to do with what it is made of. Two garments with the same fabric denier and weave, one synthetic and the other wool, should be virtually identical in their ability to block the wind. A wind shirt is the most efficient way I know of to block the wind.

A dry suit may be your best bet in dealing with the conditions you describe, though I’m inexperienced in this regard.

Eric, i agree with you on the construction aspect being the determining factor in wind resistance.

35yrs ago i had an imported oversized, baggy heavyweight wool sweater which was relatively unprocessed compared to a lot of wool (it was very itchy and still smelled like a sheep since it had plenty of natural oils and lanolin left in it).

It was moderately wind resistant due to its thick heavy yarn (it was NOT a thin sweater – alone it kept me warm into the mid-twenties), but after my mother inadvertently washed and dried it, and then i stretched it out gradually over time until i could wear it again, it was much tighter fitting, and much more wind resistant.

Even more wind resistant wool garments exist, viz. wool felt jackets and shirt-jacs (jac-shirts??? i forget). These can be real heavweights (26+oz per sq. yd). Years ago hunter’s used wool felt both for pants, jackets, and caps/hats – somewhat to quite warm (especially if a quilted insulated lining was present; less so without it – the old trapped air property of insulation), windproof, and quiet (so as not to spook game). The jackets were classic Mackinaw style and often a Loden green color (as were the pants), or a red & black classic lumberjack pattern. I’m sure that you must have seen some like i’m describing.

Both my sweater and the wool felt jackets were somewhat rain proof if natural water repellent oils were left in the wool. They worked fine in wet snow and light to moderate rain.

Downside was the weight of these garments since they were made from such heavyweight wool felt.

PJ, yeah I used to wear the itchy heavy stuff too. I wonder if the re-addition of lanolin would make wool work better in extremely wet conditions. I have long suspected that manufacturers are too good at extracting the lanolin from wool. I plan, at some point, to treat half of one of my Smartwool Zip-Ts with additional lanolin to see what the impact is.

My own experiance with these sorts of condition came through Search and Rescue on Washington’s Olympic Peninsula. I didn’t jump into rivers much (and than with a wetsuit) but I’ve paddled a bit to, and it’s an appropriate comparison. Water all around and coming from all directions. I’ve used fleece, wool, and polarguard (not primaloft). My experience indicates that you are on the right track with fleece being your primary insulation. Wool will absorb much more water than fleece and therefore become heavy and uncomfortable, it will also take longer to dry. The really light wool baselayer might be alright, but isn’t worth the trouble if it’s going to be wet all the time, when the system isn’t taking on water it might make you feel dry quicker, as it feels dry when it is in fact damp.
I don’t really recomend puffy insulation in these circumstances as it looses a lot of insulation value when soaked and does take some time to recover it’s loft. When dry and when damp it’s really good, when soaked it’s not so great. Down is useless when soaked.
Rain gear is a hard one. Nothing keeps everything out (except perhaps a dry suit, I’ve never used one) and everything accumulates perspiration, even a wind shirt. You might experiment with some breathable and not quite waterproof stuff in the brush, over something else, as in some conditions it’s more comfortable to let a bit of outside moisture cool you down, than be bottled up in gore-tex.
One thing I liked was an actual knit sweater. Much more breathable and often warmer for the same amount of material than fleece. Mine were wool but I always wanted to try one made of a synthetic that would dry faster. The sweater held the shell away from me and all of the moisture moved to the outside edge of the system. Sometimes I would take my raincoat off and find it dripping wet inside, but I felt completely dry do to the mesh-like knit of the sweater. The biggest problem had to do with being to hot.
I’ve got some other stuff around called Zyflex, which is a sort of water-resistant base layer. I bought it for hiking but havn’t used it much for a while as I’ve changed systems, but I’ve always thought it would be good for paddling. I’d loan it to you to try if you want to. I live only a couple of hours from you guys and I’d love to meet you and talk about your upcoming adventure. Why don’t you drop me a line at romans8_28@hotmail.com mabe we can make some arrangements.

Well, once again I should be more specific. I assume other people know as much about this stuff as I do.

What I meant to say is that wool clothing will cut wind much BETTER than synthetic fleece will. Synthetic fleece is notorious for having wind go right thru it…that is evidently one of the main reasons for the emphasis on soft shells and windblocking outer garments these days. Because most people use some kind of synthetic fleece (Malden Mils, etc.). If you rely heavily upon synthetic fleece without some type of wind blocking outer garment, if its very windy out at all, you can get cold.

Wool on the other hand, blocks wind much better than synthetic fleece. However, in medium to high wind conditions, say above treeline out West in alpine areas or even along high ridges in the Appalachians, yeah you are going to want to have a very lightweight, thin wind blocking garment. Whether it is a formal soft shell or an old style Wal-Mart wind break. You are going to need it.

For mild wind conditions, if you are wearing several layers of wool, I havent found the need for any sort of wind blocking garments. Wool will easily cut mild windy conditions…fleece wont.

Another thing about wool, is that it is sort of self regulating when it comes to temperature. When its winter and I’m wearing a lot of wool, I find it keeps me warm under all conditions, yet for some reason it is harder to overheat in as long as I have adequate water to drink.

As far as wool and allergies…the “itchy” factor many complain about…did you know that wool contains a substance that dust mites despise and cant live in? Thus, wool is arguably hypoallergenic, as dust mites are the most common allergen on the planet. Hence, another reason to use wool in the winter, as some people may be mildly allergic to dust mites and not even know it.

I was reading Don Ladigen’s “Lighten Up!” book last night and kind of laughed when I saw that cartoon of a someone holding up a wool sweater that had been eaten up by moths. I live in an area where there are lots of moths that will eat wool clothing…Ive had several wool suits destroyed by moths. So I do know where Don is coming from.

On the other hand, if wool is treated properly, you can stop the moths from eating it. I have a nine year old LL Bean wool lumberjack shirt that has been in my closet for nine years and it has ZERO moth holes in it. I have no idea what LL Bean does to their wool products, but it has to be some kind of conditioning or something. So it is possible to find wool outdoor clothing that will not be destroyed by moths in a few years.

I also have an old GI issue wool blanket (remember those?). VERY WARM for a blanket. It has no moth holes in it at all. And I havent used it in years. The military used to treat those blankets with something to prevent them from being devoured by moths.

Wool is actually a very tough, almost indestructible fabric.

The main issue with wool is yes, it is heavier than dry down or synthetics.

Vlad

Psst…. I’m going to tell you a secret. There are only two things that are waterproof and breathable, an umbrella and your skin. And wind will whip rain under your umbrella and hypothermia will eventually do the skin method in. Everything else is a compromise, somdays it’s goretex, somedays it’s event, a Peter storm sweater, boiled dachstein wool, or waxed egyptian cotton with a crotch strap. Today it rained and snowed all day in the N.Cascades and I wanted to believe my goretex was going to work, I wished I wasn’t so stubborn and brought my event jacket to work, and I really need to believe that those guys climbing in ice water in Scotland aren’t getting gorffed everytime they go out.
I realize that paramo and buffalo jackets aren’t super ultra light, but if you considered what a shell that wetted through and a couple of wet base layers weigh it might make sense in certain environments.

Vlad, another advantage of wool vs. some modern non-flame-retardant synth. fabrics is in the event of an accident related to stoves or fires, wool will protect the person better. Whereas, some modern non-flame-retardant synth. fabrics (example wearing a windshirt made from a non-flame-retardant synth. mat’l while also wearing short sleeves) will quickly melt on and into the skin that is burnt and then harden upon cooling. How do you spell pain? In this case, not only the burn itself, but also “debridement” once at the burn unit of the nearest hospital.

Don’t get me wrong, i’m NOT saying wool is fireproof, but it is more flame resistant than many modern synth. mat’ls. This safety factor is something a klutz like me likes to take into account. Personally, i love merino wool, but also resort to synth. garments as well.

Vlad, great post just now about other benefits of wool. I didn’t know that about household dust mites; researched them at wikepedia and was horrified about what I learned. If they ever develop a taste for blood we are all doomed.
I recently switched my baselayer socks, gloves, hat, and shirt all to merino. I believe it is best to wear a combination of fabrics to minimize risk, but do you or anyone else know a lightweight wool hiking pant like those old German army wool pants (but lighter of course)?

Vlad, another advantage of wool vs. some modern non-flame-retardant synth. fabrics is in the event of an accident related to stoves or fires, wool will protect the person better. Whereas, some modern non-flame-retardant synth. fabrics (example wearing a windshirt made from a non-flame-retardant synth. mat’l while also wearing short sleeves) will quickly melt on and into the skin that is burnt and then harden upon cooling. How do you spell pain? In this case, not only the burn itself, but also “debridement” once at the burn unit of the nearest hospital.

Don’t get me wrong, i’m NOT saying wool is fireproof, but it is more flame resistant than many modern synth. mat’ls. This safety factor is something a klutz like me likes to take into account. Personally, i love merino wool, but also resort to synth. garments as well.

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I totally agree with you on this one. Indeed, that is another reason to use wool. You dont have to worry about it melting around that campfire in camp or if you get too close to your hot stove.

In fact, the military recently banned a lot of synthetic clothing for Marines and soldiers in Iraq for the very reason you mention. The stuff melts onto the skin and creates nasty, difficult to treat burns, complicating Marines and soldiers battle injuries.

Its no different for civilian backpackers. Third degree burns are some of the hardest to treat injuries.

Just one more reason why wool rocks for winter backpacking and camping.

Vlad

Vlad, great post just now about other benefits of wool. I didn’t know that about household dust mites; researched them at wikepedia and was horrified about what I learned. If they ever develop a taste for blood we are all doomed.
I recently switched my baselayer socks, gloves, hat, and shirt all to merino. I believe it is best to wear a combination of fabrics to minimize risk, but do you or anyone else know a lightweight wool hiking pant like those old German army wool pants (but lighter of course)?

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Yeah, and dust mites thrive best in moist, warm places. Another reason to wash that nasty sleeping bag in hot, soapy water. Of course, washing a sleeping bag thoroughly is a lot easier if its synthetic fill <grin>.

As far as wool clothing, other than socks, gloves, hats and long underwear, there arent a lot of makers of wool clothing anymore. LL Bean has always been a standby. The US military used to issue some OUTSTANDING wool pants and shirts for cold weather issue. Those things rocked.

Unfortunately, the US military phased those out sometime back in the eighties and you cant get them anymore and if you can find them, they are very old and usually dry rotted. Usually not worth messing with.

I saw some East Germany Army wool pants in a surplus store last winter. They looked OK, but their weight would give an ultra-lighter a heart attack!

LL Bean would probably be the best place to start for outdoor oriented (not dress or casual) wool clothes. Their might be some places over in the UK that sell quality, old style wool clothes for outdoor use. An example is that “Wooly Pulley” British SAS wool sweater. I know LL Bean sells that still, its high quality.

The British have always been big on wool. Look at their climate, heavily cold and wet a lot of the time.

Vlad

Here’s a couple of possibilities:

BASE LAYER: How about a Brynje mesh baselayer (www.brynje.no) ? These are made of a coarse mesh, so they drain really fast and are also fairly lightweight (6 oz). Only about half of the skin’s surface area is in contact with the mesh, and this minimizes heat loss due to thermal conduction when the mesh is wet. Brynje says that most of the insulation value is provided by air-pockets in the mesh. To be effective, you have to trap the air in place by wearing a tight-fitting layer on top.

INSULATED JACKETS (micropuff, thermawrap etc): These do NOT drain well. In fact, they trap water so well that if you were submerged for any length of time the jacket would weigh you down like a lead weight.

BUFFALO PILE/PERTEX system: These work well in moderately wet environments, eg hiking, skiing and mountaineering in the pacific northwest, but are fairly heavy. They do an excellent job of moving moisture away from the skin and passing it through the pertex outer. I’ve often found that the pertex outer was completely soaked from sweat while the pile inner was nearly dry. The moisture-transport mechanism breaks down when the jacket gets soaked, so I wear a rainjacket on top in prolonged rain. I doubt that the Buffalo jacket would be suitable for really wet environments such as being submerged in a river. For one thing, the tightly woven pertex outer functions much like any windshirt and hence does not drain particularly well.