Tent fail this weekend

[BlackHatGuy]

What about a waterproof bivy for such conditions, or is that out of the question? Flop pretty much anywhere with no setup, get a long to throw your pack inside at your feet.

[Rog Tallbloke]

"waterproof bivy"

Isn't that one of those things you wish you'd taken after you get back?

[David Ure]

nm

[Diane “Piper” Soini]

Waterproof bivy

Isn't that kinda the same thing as being inside your tent without it being set up, albeit just a little more form-fitting?

I took my 8×10 tarp out and set it up in the yard. Lots of tie-outs around the corners and edges. I set it up inside-out so that the ridgeline tieouts were inside. They are composed of cotton ribbons. I tied my trekking pole handles to two of them and jammed the pointed ends into the soil. The poles were collapsed pretty low. The whole thing was low and tight with plenty of room for two.

We have permits for the weekend after next for both Strawberry Cienega camp and Fuller Ridge camp. Does anyone know the area enough to know which of these might be more sheltered? Should we get up there and it's knock-you-over windy again, it will be nice to have a choice. We're not averse to either taking it easy or pushing on to get to whichever one is better. We'll be hiking from the Spitler Trail to the PCT and then across the San Jacintos north to Cabazon.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Piper

You really are not giving enough detail about WHAT failed. It is hard to tell whether the problem was the stakes, the guys, the tent fabric or what. Sure, we can do lots of speculation, but in cases like these the technical details MATTER.

Reading between the lines, it does seem that most of your problems were associated with getting decent anchor points. So I will assume this was the major problem first.

Yes, you (and others) are quite right in inferring that sandy soil does not hold Ti wires very well. They are not meant for those conditions. But this is a very common problem with well-known solutions. You have three possibilities here: large snow pegs, deadman arrangements, or big sticks. Each of these spreads the load over a much larger volume of sand.

Large snow pegs usually hold OK, if large enough. I am talking about angle stakes made of 12" lengths of 1"x1" aluminium angle. Alternately, rectangles of sheet Al about 4"x6" with small holes through the middle for attachment. Also look at my article on MYOG Ti snow stakes
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/make_your_own_gear_titanium_snow_stakes.html
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/myog_ti_snow_stakes_part_2.html

Deadman arrangements: I think Mike C has published an article on 'going stakeless' which illustrates these. Basically, you dig decent holes and bury bags filled with the soil in the holes. The bags are carried empty of course!

Finally, depending on the country, you could scrounge around and find long DEAD sticks, maybe 1/2"-1" thick and 2' long, and use them as stakes. Either drive them deep into the sand, or dig trenches and bury them. We do this all the time when camping on sand on river banks.

If it was the knots on your guy ropes which were giving a problem – well, fix them before you leave home. The taut-line hitch works provided the string has some friction. Spectra etc is not so good for that: you need fixed knots for that stuff.

Finally, please realise that most of the American tents and tarps are not designed for severe weather. If you want to camp in really exposed places and not suffer too much, you will have to look at getting a better tent. I imagine I may be howled down over this, but I speak from some 'interesting experiences'.

Cheers

[Stephen Barber]

Piper, you make me worried! I'll be in the San Jacintos this weekend, but I'll be hammocking somewhere along Tahquitz Creek. I'll try to make sure we're protected from the wind – hopefully the trees will help with that.

Given that so much of the soil in our SoCal mountains is sand (decomposed granite), I've almost entirely abandoned ti wire stakes – they just don't hold! I find the MSR Y-stakes work much better.

Good luck this weekend!

[Diane “Piper” Soini]

What failed:

Only one stake blew out of the ground. That was the only failure. But because of the high winds, I knew it was only going to be the first stake of the night. It was a large aluminum hook-shaped stake. I couldn't find it after it blew out.

What contributed. The high winds, of course. The loose soil. The chaparral and endless side-hill trail which left little choice in camping spots. The tent fabric seems loose and seems to catch the wind more than it should, bowing with the wind and flapping violently. The knots seemed to be coming undone and maybe I wasn't getting them back where they should be, contributing to the looseness.

I didn't have spare bags on hand and wouldn't have been able to spend the night filling sand bags with my bare hands anyway. There were a lot of sticks around but again, digging trenches with my bare hands wouldn't have been a viable option. Anything I would have done I would have worried about all night anyway. This wind was pretty violent. The ants were being blown off the trail. The hikers were nearly being blown off, too.

I did what I could and next time I think that a tarp and large stakes might be a better choice for similar conditions. At least I would have more options for the size and height of the shelter.

[Charles Jennings]

I'd use this in high winds, if I needed to keep my load light. Otherwise, I'd use my Hilleberg. Either way I'd use stakes or a deadman configuration that wouldn't pull out, like Roger said.

[Charles Jennings]

I used this a couple of weekends ago, ZERO condensation. It has guyouts on the sides…surprisingly stable.

[Diane “Piper” Soini]

It's really cute, too. A little cubby hole.

[Roger Caffin]

Ummm…
What happens when it rains? It looks as thought eh groundsheet would fill up real afst when the door is opened?

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Piper

Sounds like difficult country. You might need to get rather specialised for this stuff.

I might try for a large framed bivy sack held down by some big angle stakes. I would put hard knots in the guys at the windward end, and maybe some 4 mm bungee cord at the the lee end to get the overall tension.

I would also consider taking a rough light iceaxe or a large titanium trowel and stopping early enough that I could create (like dig out) a small site behind some of the more solid bushes. They are good wind breaks.

Or design the walk to avoid having to camp on that stuff – maybe.

Cheers

[Randy Martin]

"Isn't that kinda the same thing as being inside your tent without it being set up, albeit just a little more form-fitting"

A little more form fitting? Try a lot more form fitting. That is what protects from the wind. Low profile and no excess fabric acting as a wind sail and less difficulty with setup in difficult conditions and no stakes to pull out. In addition, judging from your pictures a bivy would have been below the profile of those bushes.

[Charles Jennings]

Roger, I failed to mention that Integral makes a hooped vestibule that attaches to the front in nasty weather. You are correct – if the Wedge Bivy is used on its own, it can get wet inside when opening the door. A lightweight tarp overhead can also be used as a "porch" if set up in the trees. This is a shelter for a niche market, not best of course for all situations. Piper was having problems with high wind situations, that's why I posted the photo.

[David Ure]

nm

[Charles Jennings]

There ya go, Roger.

[Diplomatic Mike]

Cheers for the photos Charles. I've been looking at the Wedge since it came out. The top opening has stopped me buying one. We get a lot of rain here in Scotland, and horizontal sleet and snow in winter. Have you used it in rainy conditions, and has the top opening been an issue?

I think the vestibule might vanish during the night in the conditions i would like to use the Wedge. Pitched tail into the wind, i would worry about the wind getting under the vestibule, and acting as a sail.

[Charles Jennings]

I have not used it in rainy weather yet, but am anxious to do so.

BPL did a review on this shelter sometime ago, by Doug Johnson. You may want to do a search about it here.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Charles

Hum – interesting. Not what I would call capacious … but rather low profile.

Now you need to let us know how the vestibule goes in bad/wet weather.

Cheers

[ROBERT TANGEN]

Roger said:
1. “The bags are carried empty of course!” Why didn’t somebody tell me this earlier? I’ve been carrying around a dozen bags filled with potatoes. Of course, it is emergency food.
2. “I would also consider taking a rough light, ice axe or a large titanium trowel…” They sell a very light, carbon fiber “potty trowel” that looks like an ice axe, would that work?

[David Ure]

nm

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