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Winter Sleep System/Insulation

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PostedMay 2, 2011 at 2:04 pm

– Sorry – Previous post was in the wrong forum

Such is life. We're but a few wet weeks into spring and I'm already thinking of augmenting my winter gear.

I'm looking to leverage my hooded FF Volant jacket into my winter sleep system(I'd be a fool not to) and looking to slim down on my 3-season weight as well, and I'm considering quilts or half bags (e.g. Arc Alpinist, Akulu, FF Vireo) for the first time. Obviously, a quilt will provide a lot more flexibility for all-season use, but at at least 21 oz without overfill, the Arc Alpinist is a good deal heavier than some of the half bags I'm seeing. The half bags could give me that 3-season temperature versatility with other lighter insulating clothing I own, but at a sacrifice of the versatility of the variable girth systems. Additionally, I already own a WM Caribou (purchased a long (6'6") on sale despite being 5'11" 175 lbs.) which I can use unzipped when it's warmer, or zipped with negligible loss of loft with the Volant because of its generous shoulder girth (I'm taking into account the wasted weight at the footbox and the compressed down when compared with a quilt).

Can anyone make a recommendation as to whether an upgrade will be worth it in terms of performance/versatility in winter, and more broadly, year round?

Caribou – 24 oz (estimated)
Volant – 26 oz (estimated)

Arc Alpinist -23 oz with 1 oz/sq Pertex and 2 oz overfill
Akulu – 14 oz with 1 oz/sq Pertex and 2 oz overfill
Vireo – 20 oz with Nano and 2 oz overfill (if FF still doing customization)

Other items to be used for 3/3+ season use:

MB Alpine Light Down Jacket – 12 oz (estimated)
Cocoon Pants – 7 oz (estimated)
FF Down Booties – 8 oz (estimated)

I live in the northeast and will likely be doing most of my winter backpacking there for the foreseeable future.

Cost isn't really an issue.

A couple of admissions:

-I'm a newbie to backpacking generally, BPL and lightweight/UL backpacking more specifically, and a voracious gear fiend. If there's a helpline or anything like it rolled into the subscription cost, please let me know. I haven't seen a link to it.
-I use loosely the term sleep system, since I don't have a proper tent for use in the worst of winter conditions, and haven't tried moving beyond tents (or moving beyond TP and wiping with pine cones, for that matter, but that's for a different post)
-I don't yet own a scale. Spare me the vitriol in favor of input.
-I've read Mike C's list of things you all need to know in advance before providing quality advice, but I can't remember all of them when it counts.
-While I've nearly blinded myself reading countless posts on my iPhone at work, this is the first I've authored, so if I've missed anything else, my apologies.

Thanks in advance.

PostedMay 2, 2011 at 6:54 pm

When you say northeast where exactly are your referring to? Adirondacks, White Mountains, New Jersey…?

Do not overlook a warm ground pad.
For me, a I need at least a 10 degree bag coupled with a jacket like the Volant for the Dacks and Catskills, when using an Exped 9 Downmat. I use a WM Antelope, down slippers and a DAS parka on such a mat and generally stay warm, but it can be a near thing at times.

PostedMay 2, 2011 at 8:13 pm

I've been using a Vireo for about 8yrs now. Started with the 62" model with 2ozs overfill in Epic (20.7ozs total weight). Used that with my Dryloft Volant (and detatchable hood) with 2ozs overfill.
I have since switched to the the 68" model in Epic. FF made it with 10degree baffles and added 4ozs of down (23.2ozs total weight). I use the new one with a Hooded Helios.

Both systems work great in below freezing temps. The latest combo saved me 6ozs.

I have never used a quilt but plan to get one this summer. A quilt in the same weight as the Vireo will have about 2 more ounces of down fill.

PostedMay 3, 2011 at 7:55 am

I'll probably be spending most of my time in the Catskills with a couple trips to the Dacks and Whites.

I'm hoping to be able to take whatever combination I come up with to around 0 with a good pad, taken a little further with some kind of VB.

What temps are you experiencing where you need the Antelope with a DAS? I would think with WM's conservative temp ratings, the booties, and some kind of insulating legwear, that would take you well below 0. Are you a cold sleeper?

PostedMay 3, 2011 at 9:10 am

Although I spend more time in the Dacks, I've never had a below zero night in the Catskills and have gotten away with a 15 degree down bag coupled with the DAS, booties, and downmat. It has been -20 in the Dacks (the Whites are the same or colder), making the setup with the Antelope inadequate. Winter nights are long, and having some margin of error with your sleeping system is, for me, peace of mind and conducive to rejuvinative rest.
I forgot to mention that I use VBLs on my feet at night as well, and if the forecast is particularly chilly i also have military cold weather insulated pant liners. All of this with the Antelope is marginal for -20. I do not think that i sleep cold, though the way my resting body handles temperatures varies widely from day to day due to activity and what I have been eating.

The setups you mentioned might be fine to zero (with a good pad). I have used similar down jackets to the Volant combined with a 15 degree Helium down bag for down to zero (with booties, etc). For below zero, I'd still desire a warmer systems.

One thing to think about: more and more in the winter I have been moving constantly, and even with minimal layers that breathe well (baselayer under Schoeller Dryskin softshells) I end up a bit damp. My gloves and balaclava are almost always wet as well. Be sure to devise some way to dry out your "action suit", whether that be stuffing everything in waterproof bags and sleeping with them (vent the bags out of your sleeping system) or using synthetic clothing and sleeping bags. Conditions are so variable in the Northeast that you can't count on staying dry no matter how careful you are.

Of your setups, I would consider the Volant, booties, pants, VBL, and a 15 degree quilt or 20 degree bag for down to zero. You could add a synthetic overbag for even lower temps, though bulk begins to be an issue.
Have fun, the winters are great in the NE but they are getting bit crowded.

PostedMay 3, 2011 at 9:39 am

This was my first winter spending some nights in the woods. I used a zlite and Big agnus 2 1/2" air core pad. WM Antelope, VBL bag liner, and my base layers when i slept. The coldest I saw in both the ADK and Catskill Mtns was -10F ish. I think it was alittle bit colder one night in the Catskills but I didn't get to check the actually temp so -10F was a good estimation based on the NOAA prediction. I am going to change the system up alittle bit for next winter hopefully by getting VBL clothing instead of the bag liner. I really didn't like sleeping with the bag liner. It turned me silver for a week. The VBL clothes will also allow me to wear my down jacket and then an addition of some down pants for the colder nights. I am confident that I will be able to take that system to -20F. I think it is safe to say the coldest you will see in the Catskills is -10F, ADK is -20F (I did talk to some people that said they spent a clear nigth at -30F).

I think your ideas of layering down clothings with a sleeping bag or quilt are spot on. I used a summer bag under my Antelope one night this winter and it kept me warm until I tossed and turned too much and threw it off to the side. The most important thing I noticed with the layers is weight of the fabric in all the garmets. If something has a heavier fabric on it it will really start to compress the other garmets.

Another thing I don't like is down booties inside the sleeping bag. I didn't try them with VBL socks so that is why they were soaked the next morning and useless for the rest of the trip, but I didn't like the feeling before that. I really only like a pair of wool socks on my feet when I sleep, anything else seems to throw of my whole comfort level. That is just a personal thing though YMMV.

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