What is the deal with soft shells?

“for me it boils down to versatility. A soft shell combines two layers that are more versatile when they are separate. It’s like a temperature control with 2 settings vs. 4. “

Actually, that’s a great way of putting it in perspective. I agree. For me, the backpackinglight site is all about how we can do everything smarter and better. I try never to choose an option when I have a different, clear-cut ‘best’ option. When the debate is something like alky vs. esbit vs. canister cooking, I think you can argue all day long and not come up with a fit-all, ‘best’ option. But when it comes to soft-shell fabrics I think there isn’t much room for debate. There are clearly better choices for backpacking in almost all climes.

I really dig soft shell pants… so long as the fabrics is lightweight. I have the arcteryx gamma lt’s and like how breathable, stretchy, quick drying and super-durable they are.

Last winter I tried a couple of soft shell jackets out and their performance was okay…not as good as the hype though. I will most likely try something different this year.

Some definition may be in order here.

There is a distinct difference in what people know as soft shell vs. non soft shell fabrics.

Unfortunately manufacturers haven’t helped things. Like they can agree.

Traditionally, soft shell, as the term coined by Cloudveil, is defined as a stretch woven fabric without a membrane.

Schoeller Dryskin

Schoeller Dynamic

Patagonia Talus / French Roast

Pertex Stretch Equilibrium

etc.

Fabrics that are not stretch woven, like Epic, or Pertex, have traditionally not been thought of as soft shell.

Then, you take a tiny bit of stretch fiber and put in, say, Epic, and you have a soft shell?

I’d argue not.

I think for a soft shell to be consistent with a traditional definition, it must have some dimensionality in the thickness. In fact, I’d go one step further to say that stretch is not the key component of a soft shell’s performance, but that third dimension (thickness). This is why a soft shell works:

Its bicomponent and/or bidirectional weave allow for directional moisture transport; you don’t get this in Epic et al.

Its thickness provides some warmth, but its open weave (unlike membrane “soft shell” fabrics such as Powershield) provides more breathability than tight weave fabrics such as Epic.

Its outer face is woven with a surface roughness variation that is greater than the fiber thickness; result: tremendous surface tension forces that allow water droplets to bead up in the absence of DWR (mechanically-induced surface tension that relies on fiber hydrophobicity and structure, rather than DWR, which is strictly hydrophobicity).

I’m guilty as anyone for throwing the term around, but I think terminology is important here because when we are talking about the “craze” of “soft shell fabrics”, there are great differences in performance and mechanics between, say Epic, Windstopper, Powershield, Schoeller Dynamic, and Pertex, even though they’ve all been called “soft shells” at one time or another.

More here, especially as related to “soft shell” fabrics that have “membranes” for waterproofness:

Waterproof, Softshell, or Lost?

The official Nextec EPIC website defines EPIC material as a soft shell. I copied and pasted this directly from the FAQ section of the Nextec EPIC website:

http://www.nextec.com/qa/clinic.php?clinicPlace=10

“What is a soft shell?

A soft shell is a garment made with highly water-resistant, breathable, lightweight fabric. With our encapsulation process, we offer the ultimate all-weather soft shell performance.”

Vlad

Have learned a lot from this Thread. Would like to learn a bit more from y’all, so…

Confession:
other than an OR Windstopper fleece beanie DW from the Forums gave to me (many thanks DW), and some 1.5oz Montbell Stretch Gaiters (made of Schoeller Dynamic), i am unfamiliar with Soft Shell fabrics/products (are the gaiters soft shell since the don’t insulate???). Have no opinion about them, but think i’d like to try one.

Question for anyone:
what current products (not just materials) out there meet Dr. J’s definition (or Cloudveil’s+Dr. J’s definition) of a non-membrane soft shell? Requirements (if i understand correctly): 1) very breathable with “directional moisture transport”, 2) “stretch woven”, th/f it won’t have Epic since Epic doesn’t stretch, 3) it will provide “hydrophobicity” w/o the need for DWR, and 4) possesses that vital “third dimension (thickness)” for insulating capability. [did i forget any characteristic?]

> I’m a big fan of your outdoors website

Thanks. I am glad my site has been useful to you. It’s going to slowly get outdated. About a year ago I finally hit a point where I was really happy with all my gear. In the last few months I noticed that reading various forums was tempting me to engage in rampant and unnecessary consumerism. So in the last couple of weeks I have stopped visiting most outdoor-ish forums, mailing lists, etc. I have reduced my intake of BPL.com to what shows up in the periodic mail which is how I ended up on this thread. Bottom line is that I will slowly lose touch with what’s cutting edge.

> can you foresee an instance when you would head out into the backcountry for
> a multi-day trip carrying just a softshell for weather protection?
> For you, is this decision entirely weather-dependant?

I haven’t taken a hardshell on a winter outing (continuously below freezing) in several years. There have been a number of three season trips I have only taken a soft shell. This decision is somewhat weather dependent (e.g. there was a low risk of heavy storms and/or I have a credible way to bail if I was having problems).

That said, I still bring my rainshield o2 jacket (actually, it finally died, I mean my dropstopper jacket) because it was really light weight insurance. There have been several trips where I had the rainshield jacket but didn’t put it on to see if my system worked without it. So far, it’s worked reasonably well. If I adopted a “stop and set up shelter if the storm get beyond level X, then I would be more comfortable with just a soft shell… but I like to keep moving.

> softshells are redundant as I am carrying a rain shell and insulation piece(s).

Most people who advocate soft shells don’t claim they are the lightest solution… they typically are more interested in the most comfortable solution. I think that expect for extreme rain storms, or brutal cold + really nasty wind, that a soft shell will be more comfortable than the traditional base + insulation + hardshell system.

That said, there are some situations where a soft shell system might be slightly lighter provided you were facing slightly cooler conditions.

–mark

Epic by Nextec is a treatment, not a fabric. You can
get Epic treatment on light ripstop, heavy canvas,
even a pair of cotton twill pants, and yes, stretch nylon very similar to Schoeller etc.

Last year I made several hundred pair of gaiters from a “soft shell” fabric with the Epic treatment.
They were way more breathable than any hardshell fabric (eVent included) and tougher (and heavier) too. They did a
fine job of keeping out wet snow and dirt. Not for
the ultralight, they were more like the Carhartt of
backcountry clothes. Something you wear everyday
that will hold up to ski edges and bushwhacking.

One thing I found interesting is the cottons and stretch nylons burn quite well, while the light nylon
and polyesters treated with Epic tend to go out when lit with a flame, like flame retardent treated tent material. This may be one reason BD uses
the Epic fabric in their tents.

I agree with Ryan that soft shell is not well defined. I appreciate why he would like to restrict the term soft shell to stretch woven fabric without a membrane… because there would be a common set of properties associated with the term soft shell.

Reality is that very few people have such a restricted use of the term soft shell. Most people use the term soft shell to mean anything that isn’t a fully waterproof hardshell. Furthermore, I am not sure the historical precipitant for such a restricted use of the term soft shell. I am pretty sure I saw the term before Cloudveil existed. I will bet that you will find the earliest uses of the term “soft shell” are just as likely to be applied to pertex + pile as stretch woven.

All that said, I think performance of stretch woven soft shells is typically better than most of the other “soft shell” technologies.

Mark, I’m truly sorry to hear you’re satisfied with your gear! So is Marmot, Mountain Hardwear, Patagonia, Golite, Henry Shires, SMD, etc. Haha!

“Most people who advocate soft shells don’t claim they are the lightest solution… they typically are more interested in the most comfortable solution.”

I’ll buy that. For some, I’m sure its more for style points or the ooh-ahh factor but that sounds like a fair assessment overall.

also, Russell……just out of curicity…..what are the soft shells that you have used? for how long…….did you do any trip were you used soft shells…. thanks.

“What is a soft shell?

A soft shell is a garment made with highly water-resistant, breathable, lightweight fabric. “

this definition is true for a wide range of fabrics, not just “soft shells”…such as wind shirts….

“also, Russell……just out of curicity…..what are the soft shells that you have used? for how long…….did you do any trip were you used soft shells…. thanks.”

Mario,

I used to carry a Mountain Hardwear Alchemy jacket. I bought the jacket on recommendation from a climbing guide service as a ‘versitile and weatherproof’ upgrade to my other jackets. I used it for a season, it probably saw 15-20 days in the field. I found out pretty quick that I still needed a rain shell backup. I stopped carrying it for lighter options as it weighs over 20 ounces. Prior to that I used a REI & a Marmot softshell (the names escape me), both of which had similar issues with rain. If I go snowshoeing the Alchemy is a great jacket, which is about all the use I give it since I don’t climb.

Hi Russell:

Effective soft shells are made from durable water resistant fabrics that shed water very well while still being highly breathable. Light rain, slush and snow rolls right off the shell. In an extended shower, water will soak through the outer surface, but the combination of your body heat and the wicking action of the material on the inside of the shell will provide a comfortable micro climate by your skin. This doesn’t work if the material isn’t highly breathable or if there isn’t sufficient heat. [Soft shells need to be next to skin, or with a light base between the and your body or there in unlikely to be sufficient heat to drive the moisture out.

Do I stay 100% dry? Nope. But I wouldn’t be if I was wearing a hardshell, since none are sufficiently breathable to keep up with internally generated moisture when I am working hard.

Membrane / laminate based soft shells don’t do so well in rain. Their seams are typically not sealed, and the laminate isn’t up to the job of being fully waterproof. Yet they aren’t breathable enough for you to dry them out quickly just just body heat.

My guess is that you have mostly used soft shells with membranes. The Mountain Hardwear Alchemy uses windstopper, most of the REI “soft shells” use PowerShield. The Marmot jacket could have been a stretch woven, though I think the majority of soft shells that Marmot sells use membranes or laminates.

The easily way to get a good experience with a “soft shell” like approach is to try the Marmot Driclim windshirt (original). Not the one that has the stretch panel in the middle of the back just asking to soak up water.

I think soft shells are fine for single pursuits like skiing or day hikes, but they don’t fit into an UL “pallette” of clothing. A microfleece shirt and a windshirt will provide as much insulation, wind protection, and water repellency as most of the soft shells offered– at less cost, lower weight, and more adaptability. Soft shells do look good and are durable.

The whole soft shell development was to get a breathable shell that would provide good wind protection and some basic water repellency over sealing yourself into a Gore_Tex or PU coated garment that becomes a sweat lodge. Most of the soft shells I’ve looked at were trimmer fits and had some stretch too. I’d love to have one to ride the bus or walk to the store, but I’m not about to drop $200 on one either :)

Ryan Jordan wrote an article a while back comparing soft shells with shelled fleece jackets– 1984 technology. The shelled fleece jackets came out pretty good in the comparison– lighter, at least as water repellent, more insulation, and less cost.

In response to Mark:
It appears that my soft shell experience has been limited to non-cutting edge stuff and fried crab sandwiches (sorry, Maryland humor). Maybe I would have better luck with other, higher-tech, offerings. But, what I use now isn’t broken, so I’m not apt to try and fix it. I’ve had good luck with the Dropstoppers in regards to prespiration. In 65-70 degree weather, I don’t sweat much, even in moderate levels of activity (say, 2mph pace). As for durability, I could go through a lot of $15 suits and duct tape before I’d justify the cost of a top-of-the-line softshell.

I also agree with Dale. I have good luck with a windshirt over my base.

Interestingly, Patagonia lists their Houdini windshirt as a soft shell. That term certainly casts a broad net, doesn’t it?

“Yeah, EPIC is considered to be a high end soft shell material.”

Vlad, so the Black Diamond tents I’ve seen made of EPIC are soft shell tents, and they were able to restrain the marketing department from hyping it to the heavens? :

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I guess so. Actually Ive been reading about tents made out of eVENT, so go figure :)

Personally I think its just a way for them to make $$ off dumb people. But I’m opinionated, so…

Vlad

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I want to clarify something here. When I made the statement “Personally I think its just a way for them to make $$ off dumb people. But I’m opinionated, so…”, I was specifically referring to eVENT material tents.

I was not referring to eVENT generally, for use as raingear or a bivvy sack to sleep in.

I think an eVENT tent or tarp is just marketing bs and yes for backpacking purposes, I think someone who bought one would be falling for marketing lines of bull.

On the other hand, I think an eVENT bivvy sack is a good idea. Bivvy sacks traditionally have been made out of Gore Tex, but if eVENT will work as well, great. I also have been reading good things about eVENT for its main intended use…breathable raingear.

But to actually make a tent or tarp out of eVENT, that is getting pretty extra gucci to me. At least for backpacking.

I prefer tents and tarps that BREATHE. Same with clothing. I dont want a tent made out of any waterproof breathable material.

Vlad

Vlad, so the Black Diamond tents I’ve seen made of EPIC are soft shell tents, and they were able to restrain the marketing department from hyping it to the heavens? :

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yeah, to be blunt, I think they are bsing people. Why use EPIC for tent material? Maybe for certain EXTREME climates it would be adviseable and OK…maybe. Perhaps for constant high wind climates, EPIC tents would be a good idea.

But plain old nylon is way cheaper and breathes better and already works just fine. For backpacking an EPIC tent is just money down a rat hole.

KISS…Keep It Simple Stupid

Vlad