Ultra-light instruction at BSA National Jamboree?

[Vlad Putin]

I wanted to mention that I dont remember the packs on BSA High Adventure treks being all that heavy. For summer trips, maybe 35-40 lbs. For winter 50 milers, maybe 40 lbs at the beginning. One of the advantages here is that you are with a group, normally ten people or more. The BSA standard operating procedure dictates that you split up the “crew” gear among your patrol or group.

In other words, your buddy will carry the tent or tarp, while you will carry the stove. Another guy might carry stove fuel. Another guy might carry more than his share of food, but not carry a tent or tarp.

This is the same way the military does it, you split up “crew served equipment” among different people, lightening the load some.

But since so many UL backpackers are solo backpackers or just go in very small groups (your UL buddy perhaps), there isnt the opportunity to split up certain gear. Youve gotta carry EVERYTHING yourself. Hence the mad push to find the absolute lightest equipment and clothing possible.

Vlad

[Ron Moak]

>> Few 11 to 12 year olds are physically developed enough to handle 10 plus mile days, in the mountains, carrying a pack of any weight size. Ultra-light, lightweight, medium or heavy. Furthermore, as I already mentioned, that 11 to 12 year old range kid has got their hands filled with just learning the ultra basics…stationary camping, some day hiking, cooking in the outdoors, their first summer camp, making Scout and Tenderfoot rank, maybe making Second Class rank (maybe). << I won’t go into my feelings about Boy Scouts. Considering that training is up to a few dedicated or not so dedicated individuals, it’s not surprising for the organization to be quite conservative in its training or field requirements. That said, kids can do far more than we sometimes give them credit for. At 13 my own son hiked 700+ miles on the AT over the roughest terrain. He carried upwards of 20+ pounds at a time and we frequently covered more than 20 miles in a day. He really loved the experience and the harder it got the better. I also know a young girl who, at the ripe old age, of 10 thru-hiked the PCT with her folks. While her pack wasn’t really heavy, it was by no means ultralight. Ron

[Ryan Jordan]

There are varying opinions in this forum and they stem from difference experiences.

I would like to encourage everyone to be careful with their use of words so that people’s opinions and positions are recognized and considered rather than invalidated.

Ryan

[Siegmund Beimfohr]

Although my son’s experience wasn’t backpacking but bicycling, I think it fits this discussion. From the time he was 7 and did his first century (100 miles in one day), we averaged 4,000 to 4,500 miles a year until he started racing in early teens and had other time demands (school, orchestra, etc.).
At age 11, this skinny kid pushing a 30# 10-speed (my bike was 21#), did the quad-century (four hundred miles in four days) of the DALMAC (Lansing, MI to the straights) ride folowed by 400 miles in five days with loaded panniers as we rode back from Mackinac to Grand Haven, MI where our vacation time was up.
I was dying; don’t know how he did it. Kids are capable of a lot with conditioning and motivation.

[Vlad Putin]

>That said, kids can do far more than we >sometimes give them credit for. At 13 >my own son hiked 700+ miles on the AT >over the roughest terrain. He carried >upwards of 20+ pounds at a time and we >frequently covered more than 20 miles >in a day. He really loved the >experience and the harder it got the >better.

It is not that I or the BSA is not giving the kids credit, I fully realize there are exceptions and your son definitely sounds like an exception. But most 11 to 12 year olds couldnt hack 700 miles (or even 50 miles) on the AT.

I did mention that the BSA gives waivers sometimes for 13 year olds for High Adventure activities. But the general age limit is 14 and for most boys, I think thats a good limit for strenuous multi-day backpacking trips.

>I also know a young girl who, at the >ripe old age, of 10 thru-hiked the PCT >with her folks. While her pack wasn’t >really heavy, it was by no means >ultralight.

Wow…that is amazing! A ten year old thru hiking the PCT? Man, that 10 year old is tougher than most 16 year old boys.

While I believe this claim, I will go so far as to say that it is highly atypical of the norm. That ten year old girl should be viewed as the exception to the rule.

I also understand the um…cynical attitudes towards the BSA by some outdoorsman. I fully realize that there are a few who believe the BSA has strayed way too far from its original mantra…the outdoors. I am one of those people I should add. I oftentimes felt like most of the adult leaders as well as the boys were not really serious about roughing it type outdoor activities.

Unfortunately, the BSA is not run by backpackers, its run by Eagle Scout owning executive types. Many are motivated more by extrinsic motivation such as titles, medals, patches, awards of various types and the potential to be able to put “Eagle Scout” or “Scoutmaster” on their resume. Rather than intrinsic motivation factors such as the lure of strenuous backpacking treks. Sporting for the sports sake.

Vlad

[Joe Clement]

I think a lot of the issue is cost. I have realized, as I’ve returned to scouts at the age of 48 with my son… that I have to cut some weight. I did break down and find a Kelty 50th anniversay pack, and thought I was in high cotton. Then I found this web site. I’m just going to lead by example, and if some of the boys can afford it, show them how to go light. I’d rather they used heavy equipment and went outside instead of staying in.

[Mike Barney]

Ryan, what’s the chance you have a package we could start circulating to various districts and councils? That might be another way to try to provide more lightweight visibility.

MikeB

[Vlad Putin]

>Considering that training is up to a few >dedicated or not so dedicated >individuals, it’s not surprising for the >organization to be quite conservative in >its training or field requirements.

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I agree with this statement. I would take it a step further and claim that most Scout leaders are not interested in backpacking, nor teaching backpacking techniques. I used to butt heads a little with others in the BSA organisation when I was a teen due to my interest in backpacking. And I suspect Id do the same as an adult…maybe more so. I think the BSA needs to go back to the outdoors more.

I was recently browsing over the “revised” merit bad pamphlets for various outdoor subjects at my local hardware store. It *seemed* to me, that the hiking and backpacking merit badge requirements had gotten considerably easier sounding compared to twenty years ago. Maybe I am mistake. I wish I had saved all my old Scouting literature, handbooks, merit badge pamphlets, fieldbooks, etc. Then I could compare them to whats in the books now.

One thing I did notice is that the BSA has this new thing called a “Ranger” award. They didnt have that when I was in Scouts. I am wondering what that is all about.

Vlad

[Phil Barton]

I’m very thankful for the content here at BPL. It has helped improve our troop’s backpacking program.

Our responsibility, as Scouters, is to help develop outings appropriate to the boys’ age, strength, and skills. Short, overnight backpacking trips are entirely appropriate for young Scouts. The boys enjoy backpacking immensely. It’s a new challenge for them. It is also a lot of fun to help them tackle that challenge.

BSA has long held high adventure programs, like Philmont for Scout 14 and older. That is a wise provision.

Lightweight backpacking techniques are a great tool for getting the boys outdoors and encouraging them to have fun.

Here’s a great article from BPL with a solid introduction to the subject. I hope it is helpful. http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/boy_scout_gear_list.html

[Vlad Putin]

I’m very thankful for the content here at BPL. It has helped improve our troop’s backpacking program.

Our responsibility, as Scouters, is to help develop outings appropriate to the boys’ age, strength, and skills. Short, overnight backpacking trips are entirely appropriate for young Scouts. The boys enjoy backpacking immensely. It’s a new challenge for them. It is also a lot of fun to help them tackle that challenge.

BSA has long held high adventure programs, like Philmont for Scout 14 and older. That is a wise provision.

Lightweight backpacking techniques are a great tool for getting the boys outdoors and encouraging them to have fun.

Here’s a great article from BPL with a solid introduction to the subject. I hope it is helpful. http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/boy_scout_gear_list.html

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I agree about the informal weekend Troop trips. I dont see why a 12 year old cant take part in an informal, weekend Troop camping trip where two or three days of day hiking or some light backpacking is the focus of that weekend. I did a few of those when I was 11-12.

But for formal BSA sponsored High Adventure treks…including those infamous council sponsored 50 milers…I think the age limit set at 14 is the correct one. With waivers given for age 13 depending upon the individual boy.

Vlad

[Ryan Jordan]

>> Ryan, what’s the chance you have a package we could start circulating to various districts and councils? That might be another way to try to provide more lightweight visibility.

Mike – we are looking at a March 15 2007 publication date. – Ryan

[Don Montierth]

Scouting National is slow to change for good reason. In many cases the boys are just not experienced enough to make a go for backpacking with minimal gear, so they just carry everything. It depends entirely on the individual troop.

That’s why it is the local leadership that makes all the difference. That experience comes with actually getting out and doing it, when it becomes a tradition with knowledge passed down. The troop leadership, with parents that care, make all the difference.

I am a Scoutmaster of a small troop. We like to go backpacking and canoeing. Before I was scoutmaster, I was involved with the high adventure type activities for at least 5 years (my sons were in the troop, and I wanted them to have the experience). Before that, all they ever did was car camp. Even when I was trying to do “real” outings I would sometimes get resistance from other leaders. But over time it has become a tradition to do more demanding trips. The kids’ pack weight has been steadily dropping as they get experience (so has mine). There have definitely been some interesting experiences along the way, but they are learning.

[Joshua Mitchell]

“One thing I did notice is that the BSA has this new thing called a “Ranger” award. They didnt have that when I was in Scouts. I am wondering what that is all about.” – Vlad

Vlad,

Might this be what you are referencing? Venturing Ranger Award

As I was searching for information, I remembered that thing called Venture Scouting that, unfortunately, few districts participate in. In reality, one of the best ways to get boys re-involved in the outdoors may be to look into starting a venture troop in your district. Venture troops are, more or less, solely focused on high-adventure outings… hmmm… gives me some ideas…

edit – I’m ignorant… I spelled award as aware in the title…

[Adam Rothermich]

The CESA (Collegiate Eagle Scout Assoc) here is actaully a Venture Troop. We don’t really focus on high adventure stuff so much as helping the troops in our area. You do still get the Scout discount at some outfitters though.
I was in a Venture troop as well as Scouts when I was involved in Scouting. We did a lot of climbing and hiking. The cool thing about Venture troops is that it is coed. Girls, like my sister, are given the opportunity to camp, hike, climb, and otherwise get out in ways the Gril Scouts don’t offer.

Adam

[Jim Colten]

and otherwise get out in ways the Girl Scouts don’t offer.

While that is certainly true in practice, as with BSA, it depends on the adult leaders in individual units. GSA does not necessarily discourge outdoor activities but a majority of the units are led by folks who don’t care to camp. But there are exceptions.

And in BSA, there are folks who live to camp and there are those who don’t care for it.

[Don Montierth]

I will add that I take 11 and 12 year olds on backpacking trips, but they are always shorter, less demanding trips. The more demanding trips are normally reserved for age 14 and up.

The younger boys are typically from families who don’t camp at all. For some I give them their very first camping experience. They learn and grow from there.

But age is not necessarily the determining factor. 2 weeks ago I took my son (16) and daughter (13) on a 6 day trip along the AT in the Smokies. I was very impressed with how my daughter did, it being her first real backpacking trip. Her pack weighed 26 lbs at the start. The longest day was almost 16 miles with 2800 ft of vertical, in cold and windy weather. She did not complain and did very well at keeping the pace up. But she has a background in camping, and more importantly, a can-do attitude. Many of the scouts come into the program without these things, and have to learn them from experience. But I have found that even the most inexperienced camper takes to it quite well if it is done properly (in stages).

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

My son is a Cub Scout, and I am involved with our den quite a bit. Our den is very outdoorsy…so maybe there is hope when they get older ;-)
But what I really love doing is when I give presentations to the Boy Scout groups locally on trail cooking. It is a lot of fun. The boys love doing hands on stuff. I let them make a big mess, they get to see a lot of gear…and the dads? They start shoving in to see the gear also! (I bring every bit of gear I own for the kitchen for the presentations.) They love seeing the stoves, the pans, etc.
They get a healthy dose of packing light, etc from me also. I show them that they can eat good but not have to carry heavy pans or tons of fuel.

On a side note, I personally don’t think there is anything wrong with teaching light packing over ultralight. Not every kid is comfortable going without comforts-but there is nothing wrong with not making the kid carry 30 lbs! Showing them that 15-20 lbs is comfy is a good thing. When they get older, they can make their own decisions. Not every parent is involved or sees any reason to be decent gear for their boys. Most Scout boys I see are still humping heavy old school gear, because that is what is sold at BSA stores! And it is affordable!

[Vlad Putin]

“One thing I did notice is that the BSA has this new thing called a “Ranger” award. They didnt have that when I was in Scouts. I am wondering what that is all about.” – Vlad

Vlad,

Might this be what you are referencing? Venturing Ranger Award

As I was searching for information, I remembered that thing called Venture Scouting that, unfortunately, few districts participate in. In reality, one of the best ways to get boys re-involved in the outdoors may be to look into starting a venture troop in your district. Venture troops are, more or less, solely focused on high-adventure outings… hmmm… gives me some ideas…

edit – I’m ignorant… I spelled award as aware in the title…

This post was edited by jdmitch at 11/07/2006 07:19:29 MST.

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Eh…Venturing. I am not interested in that. I remember when the BSA came out with the Venturing program in the 90’s. I was still involved in Scouting (with my old troop) as an assistant Scoutmaster when that occurred. I remember the BSA developed Venturing when that big political thing happened where girls tried to gain admission into Boy Scouts. The BSA fought it aggressively and won.

They came out with Venturing as a compromise. Venturing originally is coed…I am assuming it still is coed.

Venturing reminds me of Exploring. I also dont care for Exploring. I prefer plain old Boy Scouting, where you can work towards the Eagle Scout Rank and if you hunt down an outdoor troop, you can learn outdoor stuff. I guess I prefer the basics.

My old Scoutmaster was down on Exploring too and maybe I picked up my bias against Exploring from him.

Keep it basic.

Vlad

[Vlad Putin]

There were a ton of women on staff at Philmont and that was always a cool thing <grin>. Both Phil staffers and as campers. Some were pretty hot too. I remember back in the eighties there were a fair number of female Philmont Rangers running around base camp.

Philmont has a Rayado Trek for women. Whoops, I cant go into details about that though…Rayado details is supposed to be a SECRET.

Philmont to me was so much different than regular Scouting…much more progressive. It was atypical of the regular Scouting experience IMO…far better.

Vlad

[john flanagan]

I spent several years of my wayward youth as an Outward Bound instructor, and my women colleagues were and are world-class wilderness professionals. My guess is that the same is true at Philmont. If they were running around – it may have been in circles around their male counterparts.

[Vlad Putin]

This post has also made me think about the flip side of the coin. What about all the 14 year olds and up who cant do a backpacking trip due to lack of fitness? I remember in high school by the time I graduated, I had seen a good many teenagers who couldnt hack a backpacking trip. I mean couldnt handle it physically or psychologically. I also saw a lot that could hack it, but just barely hack it. They were just “survivors” and completed the walk.

There are 14 year olds out there who can handle a 50 miler better than a lot of 17-18 year olds, due to differences in physical fitness.

With all the lame fitness fads and stuff marketed, its a shame more people dont know about backpacking. I think of backpacking as turbocharged walking. You are carrying a pack, usually up and down mountains…fast. It is impossible not to get your heart rate up unless you are in extremely good shape.

So simple…but so effective at developing fitness. And the injury rate is actually pretty low. Definitely lower than long distance running.

Vlad

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