Warmth of leading synthetic jackets?

Jon – Can you describe what you mean by “colder” conditions? For a Floridian, that might be 40 degrees. For a Canadian, it might be twenty below… Just looking for a frame of reference.

I would say temps ranging from 15 to 30 degrees or so.

I don’t start looking for lofting insulation until the mid 20’s, temperature and the feeling of warmth is a very strange business. Windchill, dew point, humidity,circulation and percent body fat, base metabolic rate, calories and type of calories consumed,age of the the jackets all play a huge role in feeling warm and when you go looking for puffy insulation. I put the puffball at the bottom of the heap, I like it a lot for fall/spring temps. The Bozeman jacket falls in next working pretty well into the mid-teens, with synthetic belay type parkas [DAS parka] hitting single digits. A decent down sweater seems to go from the low 20’s to the low teens. All of this is very subjective, last winter we played around with taking shots of olive oil/and eating hot ethnic food and found this could have very beneficial effects on comfort.

Jon –

In terms of loft of the raw insulation, here’s the rank, from thinnest to thickest.

Thermawrap < Cocoon < Micro Puff In terms of “real loft” of the constructed garment, because the Cocoon isn’t quilted and the Micro Puff and Thermawrap are, the rank is: Thermawrap < Cocoon = Micro Puff Because the Micro Puff is quilted, the insulation remains stable and durable for a long time and may not compress as much, so when the garments are totally trashed, you might see: Thermawrap < Cocoon < Micro Puff Then there are construction differences. The Cocoon has less baffling and the lining fabric tends to fill in air gaps. Worn under a shell, i think the Cocoon is the warmest, with the Thermawrap the coolest (most drafts). The Micro Puff provides better raw warmth, but feels “stiffer” to me and a little draftier. The Cocoon has a more supple feel to it…but i’m struggling to describe it :) Hope this helps.

Ryan and others, what is the coldest temps you had the cocoon or other synthetics in when that was your main insulations and remained warm/somewhat warm:)
Jon

>> what is the coldest temps you had the cocoon or other synthetics in when that was your main insulations and remained warm/somewhat warm

The usual disclaimer applies: YMMV.

With one of my typical “cool weather clothing systems”:

Top:

And no hat or gloves,

I have enough warmth to perform camp chores in wet and windy conditions down to about freezing. A little colder in dry conditions. A little colder with no wind. So, maybe a bottom temperature range of 20 to 35 is reasonable.

But if I have to hang around camp for awhile out of my sleeping bag, forget it. If that’s the case and I’m experiencing these temperatures, I’ll replace the Cocoon Pullover with the new Cocoon Hoody (coming Spring 07, a hooded pullover version of the Cocoon) and Cocoon Pants. Then I’m pretty much good to go for mild winter conditions down into the teens.

Ryan:

What’s your estimation of the coldest temp that you would wear the following combination while at rest?

o GoLite Helios jacket
o MontBell Thermawrap jacket
o L/S nylon shirt (eg MH Canyon)
o s/s baselayer tee shirt

ben2world: In mild conditions, down to into the 40s or so; in bad weather, probably not that low? I don’t have a lot of body fat, and my base metabolism is high, so I don’t conserve heat well unless I’m really chowing down.

Ryan, that’s helpful to know. Thanks.

While by no means scientific, I can share some recent experiences from this year. I have a medium-high metabolism, ectomorphic build and average body fat. I generate a lot of heat when active but lose it quickly when idle.

Sitting in camp without having eaten, in the mid-20’s (Sierra Nevada range), I was made comfortable with the combo of a short-sleeve synthetic base layer, a DriClime windshirt, a TNF Redpoint (hoodless) jacket and an acrylic cap. Ultralight? No, just the items above were something like 38 ounces. Toasty? Yep! I mention this item because while I don’t own a MicroPuff jacket, the warmth seems comparable (but at MUCH lighter weight) from when I’ve tested them in-store and in the field (loaning from friends).

More recently, I was sitting in camp before breakfast in the mid-30’s with the same S/S base layer, a 3-ounce windshirt, a WM Flight jacket, and that same hat. I was, shall we say, MEGA-TOASTY at a total of 18 ounces. ;-) Swapping the hat for a balaclava and wearing a long-sleeve layer I could easily see this combo significantly besting the synthetic combo listed above, at half the weight.

Final observation: lightweight shell material causes conductive heat loss quite easily. The Redpoint jacket was warmer against cold stone than the Flight jacket; using any sort of pad between jacket and cold surface gave the warmth advantage back to down.

FWIW, I have a welded-seam TNF Jacket (possibly the 12-ounce Prophet from ’03 or ’04) that goes over either combo to protect them from water and mist. The lack of breathability in that jacket adds a nice reinforcement of warmth in camp, despite being miserable on warm, rainy days…but that Flight jacket’s put a damper on my ability to afford eVent items so far.

Again, far from scientific but I hope it offers another reference point for you.

LL Bean used to make an OUTSTANDING Primaloft parka up until several years ago. It was part of their “All Conditions Gear” cold weather clothing system they used to sell. I dont know why they did away with that line of winter clothes.

I purchased their Primaloft All Conditions jacket and the thing weighs practically nothing, packs up so small…about the size of a one liter water bottle. And is super warm. The thing dries super fast if it gets wet…in fact it is the single fastest drying insulated clothing Ive ever owned.

I dont know if it was Primaloft one or Primaloft Sport fill. I bought it in 97, and still have it, still use it for backpacking despite the nylon tafetta shell being dry rotted and ripped in places. As long as I am going no place where my appearance matters (deep into the backcountry), I still use it.

Darn you LL Bean! Why do you have to change your clothing line when something isnt broken?

I just ordered a Wild Things, Inc. “Belay” jacket filled with Primaloft One and covered with Nextec EPIC to replace my old LL Bean parka.

Vlad

I’ve never been disapointed by anything I’ve gotten from Wild Things.
The local place of way too many expensive things has a new primaloft sport jacket by outdoor research called the Fraction. 13oz. pullover style. I’d ask Santa Claus for it but she gets unusually steamed around this time of the year about new stuff, go figure.

My Two Cents:
Last year I was at Hungrypacker Lake 11.6k altitude in the Sierras in early October. Dry day and evening with a light wind coming off the lake. I sat on my Downmat shorty conversion chair kit (14oz) and read for almost 3 hours until I went to bed wearing the following:
Ibex Woolies LJs and zip T-neck = 11.5oz
Dragonfly windshirt w hood = 3.0oz
Flight jacket = 12.0oz
Precip Anorak rain jacket w hood= 9.0oz
Possum fur watch cap = 1.5oz
Windproof lw insul gloves = 2.5oz
MontBell UL down pants = 7.5oz
MEC Shoeller Pants = 13.0oz
Total = 56.0oz

The air temp was 19 to 21′ and I was warm as toast. As one can see, I wore much of what I packed in the way of clothing and then climbed into my MB UL #4 rated to 37′ and slept through the night quite warm inside my tent.

As other have indicated, the amount of insulation people need varies depending on a number of factors. As someone who typically runs hot, I need less insulation that some of the other people in this thread. For me, the ul thermawrap keeps me warm enough when inactive down to around 25F with just a light weight base layer. I can use it below there, but I have cold spots on my shoulders. I have been comfortable with the Micro Puff down to below 10F with just a light weight base layer. I would expect that the cocoon (I have no experience) would be approx the same as the micro puff. I would roast in the WM flight jacket in nearly all conditions I have experiences in California.

I got rid of my Micro Puff because I just wasn’t using it a lot. On three seasons trips I used a Montbell Thermawrap Vest+ heavy base or light fleece + ultralight shell. On colder trips I bring the Thermwrap Jacket which I can layer over the Vest. The Micro Puff provided a better warmth / weight ratio, but the combination of a light vest and jacket gave me a more versatile system.

I am pretty comfortable standing around in 15F conditions wearing the combination of a featherweight powerdry base, montbell ul inner fleece, ul thermawrap jacket (25oz total). The most recent trip with this combo was in sept when a surprising cold snap hit. It dropped to a low of 14.6F [~9k ft, moderate humidity, winds 0-12mph.]

Of course, you lose a lot of heat from your thighs, head, etc so other clothing can make a difference. The clothing I was wearing in addition to the thermwrap jacket was Sahalie Ultralight Tights, Cloudveil Pants made of Inertia, polar buff neck gaitor, cloudveil six shadow beenie, and a golite snow cap. The total weight for the clothing system (including windshirt not listed) was 51oz.

Since sleeping weight was mentioned in the previous post, I will note that I was comfortable sleeping that night in the listed clothing minus the thermawrap jacket (it was extra insulation for my daughter) plus a 16oz ghost down quilt.