Gear List for a Mid-January AT Start

Bill-I assumed all insulation batts were 2.7 oz/yd2 PG delta. The first scenario, using the Gossamer Gear NightLight pad, will yield an EN 13537 Lower Comfort temp of 27F. The second scenario, using the Warmlight DAM, will yield an EN 13537 Lower Comfort temp of -1 F.

In summary, for both scenarios the top of your body (65%) is insulated by 5.10 clo. This is comprised of .33 clo for the bivy air gap, 3.58 clo for the three layer quilt, and 1.19 clo for the uncompressed clothing insulation.

For scenario one, using the Nightlight pad, the bottom of your body (35%) is insulated by 1.03 clo. This is comprised of .13 clo for the compressed Cocoon clothing, and .919 clo for the NightLight Pad.

For scenario two, using the DAM, the bottom of your body (35%) is insulated by 3.72 clo. This is comprised of .13 clo for the compressed Cocoon clothing, and 3.59 clo for the DAM.

Richard,

Thanks a lot for working out the numbers for me.

To keep things simple I will plan on the Warmlight DAM below freezing (32 degrees F) and the lighter pad above 32 degrees (F).

With the new “Profile” feature I maybe able to go
back and copy all your old “replys” about this type of question and see if I can teach myself how to do this.

Enjoy your hike.

Bill, hey there. If I correctly understand this thread so far on the topic of insulation (from Richards points and your posts), the gist is that you are thinking about a three layer insulation system:

(1) base layer (wool 2)

(2) med-high activity wearable synthetic loft layer

(3) zero-low activity coverup synthetic loft layer

Would you say this is an accurate summary?

One point you mentioned was to make the bottom half of layer (2) a pair of pants that could convert into a foot box type sleeping bag. Also you mentioned keeping it simple.

If I understand layer three correct, it seems that maybe a simple approach would be to just keep layer (2) bottoms as regular pants and extend your toe cozies into a more full coverage hot sox type item. This might result in lower overall weight and would elimate the engineering of an expandable pant bottom. As layer (3) will cover both torso, legs and feet, it would not seem to make any difference as to the configuration of the layer (2) insulation underneath, except for the mitten effect would be less since the feet would be somewhat separated by the sox.

This gives you a pair of camp booties, regular simple insulated pants and the same overall warmth if I am not mistaken. I’m sure someone will quickly set me straight if I am though…

jhaura,

You are mostly correct.

I want a multi-layering system that when necessary and all worn together will keep me warm sleeping “over-night” to a low of at least “O” degrees F.

I want each layer to be as light as I can buy or make. The insulating layers I make will use Polarguard Delta and if I don’t use light silk for the shell and liner material I will use Pertex Quantum.

The first layer or base layer may or may not be the #2 wool product from Patagonia. I found out when hiking in the White Mountains of NH during the winter and trying to wear Patagonia Capilene Silk weight top and bottoms, that the bottoms had to go. My legs just got to warm when moving. I also think from wearing #2 wool and Capilene, that the Capilene seems to block air better than the wool does. I believe that the #2 wool bottoms will be to warm to wear when moving. I have a lot of questions and not many answers yet.

I also want all my pants and upper body garments to have a side zipper or pit zips or some way to vent heat when necessary, if possible. The stock BMW Cocoon pants and Jacket I have do not “come with” a side zipper or pit zips vs the Mont-Bell Thermawrap pants with side zips that I also have. Pit zips are a little harder for me to have added or do myself.

As for the Pants/Sleeping Bag idea that is still being worked out and not a “for sure” item yet. It seems like a good idea but needs testing. You have some good ideas and I may try some of them during the testing phase.

The number of three layers may be four layers. I need to do some testing to decide what number gives me the most flexibility in the temperature range I expect. Starting at Springer Mountain in January and going north I could see a constant changing temperature/weather situation.

Bill: On Thursday morning I sent a package winging your way via priority mail. The original suspenders were cut away long ago, replaced with a single piece of webbing. I was suprised to see that the bag mode is wider and shorter than I remember, and that there are some significant gaps here and there. Oh well, the Wright plane wasn’t a 747 either.

Thanks Robert.
I am anxious to see just what they look like and how they were made.

It will be interesting to see if I can come up with a modern version. I will post some pictures of the stock item when I get them. I expect a few others may be interested in what they look like.

Priority Mail is quick some time so I would expect to see them early next week. With a good tail wind maybe on Saturday.

From an alcohol-ravaged brain: The Nunatak Skaha Plus Vest is a hooded, ultralight (under 6 oz total weight size medium), fully baffled zip neck vest filled with 800+ high loft goose down. It (or a homemade version) might go well with a bib-style insulated pant. This combo leaves out the arms, but bike shops sell removeable arm warmers.

I have been looking at the Nunatak web site a lot. I saw the hooded vest. I have a pattern for a hooded vest but it is waiting its turn on the “to do” list. The first one I make will use Polarguard Delta. I have a Down hood that I made a couple years ago to wear if I need it. It goes with my Hammock “0” degree sleep system.

The best news is that your “Package Arrived” and “it” is here.

Thank you very much.

I just got your package. Sometimes the US Postal System even surprises me.

I just took “it” out of the box and as soon as I understands how it works I will take some pictures of “it”.

“it” came at a good time. I just dyed 25 yards of silk.

Bill: I love your wording: it’s so mysterious, everyone will think “it” is at least immoral, if not illegal. My life should be so exciting. Good luck.

Old REI Pants – Half-Bag Combo

This is “it”. An older (?) model REI (Down) Pants / Half-Bag Combo that Robert sent me. It weighs 30.86 ounces and the tag says the Shell material is 100% Nylon. The name tag inside it says REI CO-OP and the snaps even say REI CO-OP on them.

The design as you will see from the pictures is sort of simple. The one I have is a size large and is about 50″ long. When worn as a pair of pants it comes up above my waist and to within 8″ of my arm pits. It has two heavy YXX zippers. I think the zippers are heavier than a #5. When wearing “it” as pants or laying in “it” as a half-bag I get warm real fast.

To make something like this as a MYOG project my first estimate using Pertex Quantum for both the liner and shell and one layer of Polarguard – Delta insulation and a set of lighter zippers would be a weight of something less than 9 ounces. I might be able to down-size the large to a size medium and bring the weight down a little.

I will start work on a pattern Sunday. I will make a prototype to test the pattern and see if it works like I want it to.

Set-up to use as a half-bag:



Me sitting in “it”:

The change over from bag to pants:




Me wearing “it” as a pair of Down pants:

Bill: Glad to see your message on another web site! Now get back to work entertaining us with your great designs!

Answers and Questions for Richard

Richard,
A couple months ago you stated and / or asked the following:

===============
Richard stated:
“Now for the controversial part <grin>.

Insulation clo/oz % loft when wet

Polarguard Delta .68 -40
Primaloft Sport .74 -11
Climashield XP .77 -??
Primaloft One .84 -00

500 fill down 4.5 -60
800 fill down 2.5 -60

1. Q – Would you investigate a DIY source for Primaloft One? It would be the optimal solution for wet environments. Brian’s counterpart for Primaloft is Arnie Liati in the Primaloft Issaquah, WA office.

1. A – I could not find anyone that was retailing PL-One. I decided to call PrimaLoft and see what it takes to buy direct from them. I finally found a little time to call and ask. I filled out a form for them and asked about getting a sample of PL – One 1.8 ounce a sq yard insulation. I have had a 5 yard sample request approved and they assigned a Sale Rep to me. The sample will be shipped Monday next week. I asked about buying some and was given a price for one roll. I will wait till I can make a few things with the sample and test them before I decide if I want to buy a roll. The sample will be enough to make several items to test / compare with the other insulation I have. I will make a Quilt / Liner for my Bivy with some of the PL-1, 1.8 oz a sq yard material so I can do a direct comparison with my other Quilts / Liners. I talked to my Sales Rep Friday late and asked for samples of several other interesting PrimaLoft products and will find out about them next week. I also suggested he look at this site and he logged onto it as we spoke. He and his wife are “Trail Runners” and he is interested in lighter gear. They are doing a race someplace next year.

One problem (maybe) working with Primaloft One will be the need to stabilize the insulation in a different manner than I have had to with the Polarguard Delta and the Climashield Combat. I will have to sew the Primaloft One in 6″ squares or do the button/tuck quilting trick. I will sew or whatever the PrimaLoft One between two layers of my light silk to save weight and save my good material. Since I am making my quilts to go inside my Bivy and the Bivy shell is Pertex Quantum I think this technique will workout OK.

I did a little math and I should be able to make a PrimaLoft One quilt the same size as my other two at about or a little less weight. If the sample is at or near the 1.8 ounce a square yard range the higher clo of the PrimaLoft One should keep all the quilts at about the same low temperature range.

2. Q – Would you let us know what quilt weight you could achieve using 800 fill down for your quilt? It is available from multiple sources and has a much better clo/oz value for dry environments.

2. A – I did a little math to see what the answer to this might be but I need to work on it a little more. I need to figure out the sewing for sewn baffles. The way I have worked with Down in the past was with a removable baffle or side-in silk tube of Down. Doing it that way let me use the Down Tubes for other things but did add a little weight. I need to practice making the baffles a different way and when I work that out I can then weigh the material and add the Down weight for a “best guess” answer. It would seem that the Down Quilt / Liner has to be lighter by a bit. The difference might be an ounce or so over the current Quilts / Liners that weigh 6.5 to 7.5 ounces. The total weight for a Down Quilt same size, same Temp range (40 degrees F) might be as low as 6 ounces using my light silk as the shell and liner material.

3. Q – My experience with synthetic bags is that I get about a 40% reduction in loft after one season’s use and then they stabilize at that loft. The temperature rating drops and stabilizes accordingly. I haven’t experienced more than 10% degradation in my down bags after multiple years of use. No one on the BPL forums has ever compared the loft degradation history between various synthetics. Would you monitor the loft degradation with your quilt experiments?

3. A – I don’t know how I will do this but I will try an watch what happens over time.

4. Q – From your conversations with the Polarguard folks do you know what the Climashield XP loft reduction is when wet?

4. A – The next time I have a chance to talk to someone like Brian I will ask about this and see what they say.

PS.
I have also updated my gear list which is on the first post of this thread.

Bill-Thank you for the status update. I will be closely monitoring your “tell it like it is” test reports.

It will be very interesting to see if the theory matches the real world.

Bill, hey there. The list is looking good. Lot’s o’ cuben!

I just ordered 6 yards of Climashield XP and 10 yards of 4.5mm silk for a couple quilts.

We’ve spoken about a system of top and bottom insulation that can be worn, and you have made the tunic.

I was brainstorming on ways to “wear” two quilts in such a way as to cover top and bottom without making slits or using zippers.

My patience is short lived on complex patterns and gear, so I was thinking of how to make it a dead simple wrap.

I’m relaying this to you before I have done any real work on the idea because I know your tinkering with those REI pants and other stuff and it might fuel another direction, or at least you may have some input for me as I get going on it.

There are two main configurations I have been thinking about:

1. Two single layer quilts in similar dimensions to your tunic. In “sleep mode” they are layered on top of you as needed, one or two. This is what you are doing now with the tunic and liner.

In “clothing mode” one quilt is draped with the top (wide part) on your back at shoulders. The other, the same but on chest. They are attached at sides of neck via a button or snap. At this point you are wearing both quilts vertically, with the foot area overflowing on the floor at front and rear of your feet. The quilts are suspended on your shoulders.

I was thinking if you attach the two quilts via a shockcord belt or two buttons at the waist, you could then take the rear quilt below the waist and wrap it around one leg all the way down to the ankles and attach it with buttons/snaps in a couple places. After doing the same with the other leg using the front quilt, the torso and legs would be fully covered. The shockcord belt or buttons at the waist should keep both quilts centered covering your bum and privates, while the lower part of each quilt angles off to each leg.

No slits, no zippers. Full coverage except arms and feet in clothing mode. One or two layer quilt in sleep mode.

Drawback: limited bending over ability. Quilts may bind at waist, like coveralls. Maybe not.

2. Four half quilts. All separate pieces.

Make two top halves of a quilt one with a drop tail (like on a shirt). Wear in same fashion as above with drop tail piece in rear. This covers your top like your tunic.

Make two bottom halves of a quilt. Wear like highwaisted skirt with halves flipped upside down so narrow lower leg dimension is at waist and wider hip dimension is at ankles. Giving a wider bottom for leg stride. The two bottom halves could attach via two buttons or shockcord at the belly/solar plexus, and a couple buttons down the sides to enclose it. Much better movement and flexibility than the first method.

In sleep mode button/snap a top piece to a bottom piece (bottom piece flipped around now with hip dimension at hips) for a single layer quilt. Using existing snaps/buttons form footbox. For the two halves point of attachment should overlap a bit so there is not a cold spot at the union of the two pieces. Do same with two remaining pieces if a second layer is needed. You know have a single or double layer quilt. And an enclosed footbox.

I like this method the best for flexibility and ease of skirt mode instead of wrapping each leg.

No expensive insulated garments to buy, and less gear to pack.

I know this may be hard to follow without graphics/pictures, but I thought I would throw it out there until I piece together same samples.

Richard,
Thanks for the reply.

Jhaura,
Yes, lots of Cuben. Go Cuben – Defy Gravity. I am waiting for them to bring their WPB version to market. I was told that their test runs came out about .7 ounce per sq yard.

I am trying to make my wear/sleep system without having to sew zippers. I will try and use buttons and fasteners of some type if possible. I have a bunch of zippers and will use them if all else fails or gets to busy. I may try to color code my buttons for ease of assembly or to change the set-up.

I have the answer to the lightest – temperature controllable – WPB – and everything else we want in our gear but need some seed money to develop it – like Bill Gates and a couple billion dollars.

My list of projects “started” keeps getting longer as I keep finding new materials to play with. A few of them are waiting on stuff that is “in the mail”.

I am sure we will come up with something “Wearable Quilts ETC” that will work. How well it works, well, time will answer that question.

You should like the Climashield XP. I have some and will use it for a vest soon. Are you going to dye the silk? Rite dye works OK on silk.

I follow most of what you are talking about. Think about a one layer WPB cover shell of some sort to help keep everything dry if it rains on you.

Wow a lot of good planning discussed here. One note: If you are using a floorless tarp, I think your ground cover is important when sleeping on snow. Heat from your body will go down into the snow causing it to melt. Whatever the bottom layer is it often gets wet. It won’t matter much if it is your ground cover. Even with a pad the snow tends to conform to the shape of your body. Then it will freeze up, so that when you change positions, you will be sleeping on lumps previously formed by your body. That is why it is a good idea to stomp the snow down making it as level as possible before you lie down. The bivy should add some warmth even if your inside a shelter, but I think it would be an important safety back-up in case you could not get to a shelter.
Maybe this is what Robert had in mind:
http://jacksrbetter.com/index_files/Products%20List_files/No%20Snivelling%20Quilt.htm
Jacks R Better “Snivieller”

Sometimes on the primarily leeward side of some conifers, close to them, the ground will not be snow covered. Under them can be problematic though, particularly white pine when laden with heavy wet snow which we often get in the northeast (don’t know about snow out west) and the wind kicks up during the night; result = a “widow-maker” (i.e., a branch) lands right on top of you. I see them fallen ’bout every two or three years off the white pines around my property when i look out the morning after a windy wet snowfall.

Food and Related Items for the Hike:

This post is related to the thread
“Unsupported/Unresupplied/Thru-Hikes”

Since all my food has to be liquid, well I can eat a few soft things if I am careful, I have an interest in higher mileage between resupply stops. I can’t just walk into many stores and buy Dry Ensure. To do an AT Thru-Hike or a very long hike of any kind I had planned to do a lot of mail drops. In the early planning I thought about just doing my resupply when I walked through a place with a Post Office or a store that would hold a food drop for hikers. The idea of going into town after town has very little interest to me as I can’t eat the kind of food I would find there.

This idea of only a few resupply stops wither it is 3 or 5 or 10 plays into my food needs. I am sure I can not nor would not try a 3 resupply AT Thru-Hike this time. I might think about 5 resupply stops. That would give me a average food weight at the start of each of the sections of about 33 pounds. I was surprised at the large volume the food was going to take up in my pack. My Dry Ensure packs a lot of calories in a small package. A one serving amount of 282.5 calories (2.29 ounces) will pack into a coffee filter and be about 2″ square for planning. The zip lock bag in the picture is 10 servings or food for one day (2825 calories). I am using Hammer Perpetuem in all my water and that will add about 520 more calories a day for a total of about 3345 calories a day.

Nutritional information for Dry Ensure:

Nutritional information for Hammer Perpetuem:

Multi-Use in action:

On the second half of my hike in Georgia last month I started packing my Dry Ensure in a large paper coffee filter. It made my every 90 minute food stops go much faster. The paper coffee filters also turned out to make great TP. That saved a little weight and gave me a way to recycle the empty paper filters. The paper burns nice if I need something to start a fire with.

Hey Bill,
The coffee filters are a great idea.

As far as the bag for the Perpetuem goes, I find it easier to put it in the smaller zipp lock bags so I can just grab a new one and put it in my outside pack pocket.
I also made a scoop that is longer and narrower to fit inside the top of a water bottle. The scoop is made so 1 scoop equals the amount you will need for the size water bottle you are carrying.

I also designed my pack to fit perfectly in the small of my back. I put all of my food in a large (12.5 X 20) OP Sac and wrap it with my thinlite pad to keep it in place.
This way I can put 3/4 of my pack weight right next to my body in the small of my back where it is the most comfortable to carry.

Thanks Aaron,

I also use a zip lock for my Hammer Perpetuem. I have a small scoop that came with an instant coffee mix. Hammer Perpetuem is some good stuff. Even my Doctor thought it was a good idea to use it along with my Dry Ensure when hiking.

On anything but a short hike I use a home made external frame pack. I like a little air between me and my pack bag.

Isn’t great that when we can make some or most of our own gear. We can have it just like we want it.

Bill,
Ah yes, making your own gear does have its advantages.
The problem with most of the stuff I make is the (when you get it right).
Sometimes, even the 3rd time isn’t a charm.
I am going to start digging in to making some cuben stuff soon. I just don’t know what to make. I am just not all that happy with my fully enclosed tarp designs, (finicky).

I am glad you like the Perpetium.
There is one thing you need to know about it. It ages fast.
Once mixed, you need to drink it in about 4-8 hours. The hotter the faster.
Very bad if you wake up with leftovers. Smells to high hell.

Aaron,

When making anything for the first time I always make a couple of the “what ever” out of Wal Mart $1 a yard stuff. Then when it is like I want it I use my good stuff.

I am making a new Cuben Tarp for my hike in January. It will be something like 9 or 10 feet long and about 7 to 8 feet wide. Simple design and large enough to cover me and my stuff in rain/snow or what ever I have to deal with. If the weather is really bad I can sleep in a shelter.

The guy at the store where I first bought my Hammer Perpetium told me not to mix to much at one time. I use a 20 ounce Gatorade bottle to drink from while hiking so it doesn’t last more than a few hours.

Aaron, a suggestion (and this coming from someone who can’t sew – so please take it with a grain of salt), if i were to attempt a DIY sewing project, any project, i would probably find a great product already out there (GG or BMW tarp, HS tarptent, etc), and copy it – and then, add any “tweaks” i think that i would need (e.g., attached bug netting to a GG SpinnShelter, etc.).

It would be nice if you could find an actual product and measure the dimensions to get it right. Lacking the ability to do that, it’s amazing, i’ve read Posts where a person has actually contacted the owner of some of these fine Cottage Industries and the owners actually “gave away the store”, so to speak, and told the person the acutal dimensions of each panel and how to sew it. Go figure?!!! These exemplary human beings are NOT in it solely for personal profit. Their love of all things outdoors and willingness to help another succeed, at their own expense, so to speak, still takes precedence over accumulating personal wealth – a fine example to us all.

Just a thought.

PJ, there you go again. First you offer to help out a young man with a BPL membership, then you have the audacity to actually praise cottage industries that provide generous help to their customers. You are making me look bad in front of my children, and, oh yeah, the wifie, too. I teach my little ankle nippers to look out for the greatest number, which is Number One. Both your actions and your pronouncements are UNDERMINING THE EDUCATION OF MY CHILDREN!

Thanks for the knowledge.
I’ll stop being a Troll on Bills gear list after this post, (unless it’s about his gear list).

The problem with copying or changing a manufactured design is I haven’t found a 10 ounce fully enclosed tarptent out there using 1.3 ounce silnylon, The pack; would be nice to copy a
1400-1600ci pack strong enough for heavy abuse and hard running with very good padding at a 6.5 ounce weight.
I would rather make a product I can use the first time. after spending all the time designing it, I wouldn’t know what changes to make in order to make it work correctly any way. If I did, I would have made it that way in the 1st place. Besides $5 a yard for fabric isn’t that much at all considering the time you put into it. Might as well use it.
If I really don’t like it, it get sabotaged for something else, which is even a better reason to use the good fabric.

Being innovative is half the fun for me. I always wanted to be an inventor.

Any way, I’m sure this is half the reason Bill makes his own gear as well.

My logic behind going UL is to go as lite as possible while still being satisfied with your gear. I realy don’t want to spend $15 a yard on Cuben until I know that piece of gear is exactly what I want.
Being cold or uncomfortable is definitely not satisfying.