Adding overfill to a Summerlite

I think you have it wrong, the you are quoting the Comfort Rating, that is for the average woman:

Comfort Limit The first number is based on a standard woman having a comfortable nights sleep

Lower Limit The next number is based on a standard man at the lowest temp to have a comfortable nights sleep

Extreme Rating The last number is a survival rating for a standard woman

Using that method, the Summerlite is EN Rated to 35.6*F for the average man. I have owned a Summerlite before I switched to quilts and I find that about right, it was good to ~35* for me. WM Does rate it at 32* so they are a little optimistic, but right in line with Marmot's bag.

The Ultralite is EN Rated to 15.8*F for the average man, which is actually warmer than WM rates it. I used to own a Ultralite too, and found it comfortable to the 17-18*F range. Mine was one of the older non Super versions without the draft collar.

To try and hold them to the Comfort "woman's" rating certainly isn't fair to WM since they are not marketed as Women's bags.

Bradford,

Very interesting what you say about women's rating, I was going to post that earlier but got distracted by having to feed the cat and bringing more drinks out to the porch :)

More information, thanks for noting that, however, all you have to do is read this thread, here, today, now, to see that the ratings are of real use as standards to judge, and thus it's very strange to see them not used, and to see somewhat defensive reactions about something so elementary and non controversial, but that's how us geeks are I guess, it's the same in any realm of geekdom.

If we look at this as a sort of vote, you have I think 4 people who find that the summerlite is a 40 degree bag, a few who find it a 32 degree bag, and that's roughly what the en ratings note.

Note the use of the word 'standard' there? That means average, ie, not a hot sleeper and not a cold sleeper. I've been very careful to be very precise in my language but it doesn't seem to really do any good, people are just going to read what they want to see I guess. Just from the posters on this thread, and my own experiences, it seems pretty obvious that if you are a male cold sleeper, then the bag rating of 40ish upper is exactly right, if you are an average man, ie, a medium temp sleeper, then 35 is ok, and if you are a warm sleeper, you can go to 32 or below provided you have an adequate pad. You'll note, by the way, that the lower comfort is higher than the 32 listed, so even there it's not accurate.

The purpose of showing the en rating is so that you can say, ok, yes, I know where I stand on this scale, so I can decide what bag to buy based on that data. I don't see why this point is so difficult to comprehend, but I think I'll let it drop since one can only say something so many times, if hasn't registered by now, it won't ever register I assume.

The summerlite bag page does not say a word about it being a men's or woman's bag, which is all the more reason to use the full en rating for that bag, how is a woman to know after all?

bpl does well in educating but the problem of thinking that if something works for you it works for everyone is also something that is a weak spot here in my opinion, but that's life.

deleted

And that's why I always add 10f on to a bags rating :-).

http://www.outnorth.com/western-mountaineering-eu/summerlite.php

summerlite… tested as a 35.6F bag for the "average" man

Temperature Rating. EN 13537 tested:
T comf: +6ºC
T lim: +2ºC
T ext: -14ºC

of course ratings are very personal … but as a general comparison between bags, they are pretty valuable

the name brand in terms of "warmth" is fairly irrelevant … its a simple matter of insulation and shape … now brand might buy you other goodies, but all the positive BPL thinking in the world wont make a (insert favorite brand) bag "warmer" than a "cheaper" bag that is en-rated substantially warmer …

to understand more go here …

http://www.mammut.ch/images/Mammut_Sleep_well_pt1_E.pdf

Harald, WM does *not* use the EN lower limit rating when listing their bags. They use their own rating, which happens to be close to the EN lower limit. I called WM to get the EN ratings. They do not put a lot of stock in the EN ratings but pay the testing fees so they can sell in Europe. They do not sell the full line oversees, so they do not have ratings for all of the bags.

Now I happen to agree with you that they should list the info for full transparency and disclosure. I asked for the info so that I could make a more informed decision on their bags, but I'm also interested in seeing the WM rating.

Ultimately, it's all an estimate and YMMV. 3 posters here were cold with the bag. We would need to know more about their layers, pad used, shelter type, etc. to draw a conclusion. And regardless, each person will have their own experience. The EN rating is a nice consistent system, but I don't automatically assume it's more correct than the WM rating. And regardless, I'll need to carefully evaluate how far I can push it by trying it in the field..

If you find that you're comfortable at comfort limit in one bag, then you should be comfortable at comfort limit in other bags.

Or if you're comfortable at 10 degrees warmer than comfort limit in one bag, then it should be the same with other bags

It's just a way to do fair comparisons between different bags

And if you don't know whether you sleep warm or cold, you can just assume comfort limit if you're a woman or lower comfort limit if you're a man and it should be close, or you could get 10 degrees lower than you think you'll need just to be safe

This is better than some manufacturers being more or less conservative so you don't really know anything

"If we look at this as a sort of vote, you have I think 4 people who find that the summerlite is a 40 degree bag, a few who find it a 32 degree bag, and that's roughly what the en ratings note".

Make that 5 people who find it a 40° bag. I am planning to sell mine for that very reason. It just isn't warm enough for *me*. Might be for others though…and may have been for me too 20 years ago when my metabolism was different.

Not to knock the bag or the company. Both need no introduction to excellence. I'm guessing WM rates it the way they do because that's the way their competitors rate theirs. WM would be shooting themselves in the foot to rate otherwise if the competition didn't do the same.

The choice of sleeping pad one uses should be based more on the anticipated soil surface temperature than on anticipated air temperature. If the soil surface is, say, 65 degrees, you need less pad than if the soil surface is at freezing. And, at least for the pad materials with which I am familiar, air temperature has relatively little effect on the pad one needs to be comfortable. In most situations, and certainly for the mountains of the western US, summertime soil surface temperatures at night are usually well above nighttime air temperature lows and so we can get by with fairly thin pads. For sleeping bags, however, air temperature is the more important factor and one can be cold when lying on warm soil or a thick pad. I have not had any experience with Neo-Air pads or their ilk so can't comment on them but for CCF pads and Thermarest-type pads where convection is not an issue, anticipated soil temperature is the critical factor when choosing a bottom insulation layer.

My experience with WM bags is they have excellent craftmanship but I have always found them to be cold and I need warmer rated bag. I also find them cut very tight making it hard to wear lits of extra layers to sleep. So if you are a cold sleeper get a warmer model.

I found the Summerlite and Ultralite a bit tight
and not suitable for layering, but the Alpinelite and Puma are more than sufficent for layering.

"I found the Summerlite and Ultralite a bit tight and not suitable for layering…"

I can wear my WM Flash jacket in my Summerlite without feeling at all tight. But, I'm 6' and only a hair over 150.

Rusty, is yours a regular or long?

Stephen,

My Summerlite is a long. I had a regular length Highlite and it was too tight, lengthwise, for my liking.

I think the Long is an inch or so wider than the regular which helps.

My Alpinelite and Puma are regular as I am 5' 11"