Ursack Lawsuit Moves Ahead

[Dirk Rabdau]

Thought this tidbit gleaned from the Ursack website would be of interest:

February 19, 2010

Ursack's lawsuit against the Sierra Interagency Black Bear Group et al. was heard by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco on February 17, 2011. The three judge panel appeared quite interested in the controversy, and we would expect a ruling well before the summer camping season. If you want to hear the oral argument, you may do so here.

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/media/view_subpage.php?pk_id=0000007063.

[EndoftheTrail]

Not that I really know, but I thought the SIBBG disbanded itself??

[Dirk Rabdau]

You are correct, they did disband. However, I think Ursack would like to see their goods reauthorized for the entire length of the Sierra. Right now, it is still banned in a few areas. But the rules have changed in many parts of the Sierra, I was surprised how many changes to the rules have occurred in the past two years regarding bear canisters.

Dirk

[EndoftheTrail]

Well, as an owner of an Ursack, I would like to be able to use it once again on Mt. Whitney — and without the heavy aluminum liner! Assuming it's truly bear proof and all, of course.

[Chris Morgan]

All very interesting. It sounds like one of the judges lives in bear country and doesn't buy the argument that NPS needs to have stricter standards than the NFS. That being said, it sounds like Ursack needs to show that the agencies' decision to ban was/is arbitrary and capricious. Ursack was arguing that because Bearvault had failures and was not excluded entirely, but Ursack was excluded, indicates that the agencies were being capricious in their regulation. However, the parks and forest services correctly point out that the success/failure ratio (at least in 2007), was substantially higher for Ursack, and that there is a much higher rate of use for Bearvault, making it reasonable to accept improved Bearvaults but not Ursacks.

[Anonymous]

Last year the Lone Pine rangers at the visitors' center asked if we intended to use hanging as a method of food protection for a hike thru Cottonwood Lakes. Containers have been required for several years and I was surprised by the question. I was late getting on the trail and the ranger at the desk was a real talker so I didn't pursue this to find out more-just didn't have time.There were a couple of other ranger contacts that gave the impression that anti-bear food storage was a little more flexible than in the recent past. Is the perception correct that there have been some unannounced rule changes?

[Bob Gross]

"Well, as an owner of an Ursack, I would like to be able to use it once again on Mt. Whitney — and without the heavy aluminum liner!"

Benjamin, that makes a case for using titanium.

–B.G.–

[Ken Helwig]

Well for what it is worth. I used my Ursack with an aluminum liner the summer that Ursack was allowed in Inyo going up Whitney…guess what? Nothing happened. We only spent a night at trailcamp which is well above tree line. This could work out well for Ursack.

[Devin Montgomery]

Chris – "Arbitrary and capricious"… Ah, Chevron. :)

[Bob Gross]

Ken, at Whitney's Trail Camp, about all you really, really, need is marmot protection for your food. Those critters are all over the place. Big fat suckers that look like they've been pigging out on Mountain House for years.

On the other hand, apparently the black bears do cross those mountain passes.

–B.G.–

[Hiking Malto]

There is a belief in the PCT community that canisters must be carried from Kennedy Meadows to Sonora Pass. This is just not true and I did an entry in my 2011 TJ that documents where they must be carried and in most cases listed the most up to date info. It can be found here:

http://tinyurl.com/4awy4op

Note that this applies to PCT thru hikers in regards to the storage requirements in SEKI. My understanding from the Ranger is that JMT hikers must carry a canister through the Raes area because there may not be room in the boxes during the high traffic season. Not an issue for the PCTers.

Now, would it be possible to hike from TM across Dorothy Pass in a day? Then I could ditch the canister completely or better yet I can carry my Ursack. Go Ursack!

[Bob Gross]

"Note that this applies to PCT thru hikers in regards to the storage requirements in SEKI. My understanding from the Ranger is that JMT hikers must carry a canister through the Raes area because there may not be room in the boxes during the high traffic season. Not an issue for the PCTers."

Why is this not an issue for PCTers? Along the Rae Lakes area, the PCT and JMT are the same.

Are you saying that PCTers get space priority over the JMTers at the boxes?

–B.G.–

[David W.]

So if SIBBG no longer exists as an organization, who is in court acting as the defendant? Was the NPS also named by Ursack as a party to the suit?

[Bob Gross]

Pretty much it is Ursack against the combined NPS and FS. And NPS looks to Yosemite as the most advanced in their bear management.

–B.G.–

[Ken Helwig]

"Ken, at Whitney's Trail Camp, about all you really, really, need is marmot protection for your food. Those critters are all over the place. Big fat suckers that look like they've been pigging out on Mountain House for years.

On the other hand, apparently the black bears do cross those mountain passes"

Exactly! Hence my above treeline comment. Bears have been known to roam a little more above treeline, but for the most part marmots are the kids you would be protecting against. I feel that if you used your Ursack correctly, that the chances are pretty low that you will have a bear encounter. I also endorse using an odor proof bag like an Opsak

[Bob Gross]

It's always a sight when the poor little marmot is looking up at me, seeming to plead "Oh, Mister Backpacker, won't you feed me just a little? It was a cold winter, and I just don't know if I can make it anymore! More gruel, sir."

Yet that marmot is so fat from Mountain House that its belly is dragging on the ground. And it is not just the fur coat.

One year there was a fat marmot on the summit. I think he was wearing a TSA badge and was offering to do a hand inspection of your food canister.

–B.G.–

[Hiking Malto]

"Are you saying that PCTers get space priority over the JMTers at the boxes?
"

Not exactly, but they are coming through earlier in the year when there is less demand on the boxes. During peak JMT season all those boxes would be jammed full and if there wasn't enough room there would be unprotected food. There are a lot less PCT hikers and they are moving through the area much faster.

I was pleasantly surprised by this and even confirmed it with the park. I called and the first person told me that everyone needed a canister. When I told her about my conversation wih the ranger she checked and came back with the same story as the ranger. "PCT's don't need to carry canisters but they must use the bear boxes if they don't carry."

[Bob Gross]

Maybe I am just trying to game the whole situation.

Why couldn't a JMT hiker get permits for both JMT and PCT? Then, when confronted by a ranger, you could show one permit or the other, just depending on what was to your advantage for that particular place.

Personally, I admit to having used the food storage boxes before in Sequoia. However, I don't like to use them, because it leaves your food vulnerable to other backpackers and their sense about actually locking them or not. Plus, you might want to camp a mile away from the food box. It always seemed like an advantage to have your own bear can and you can put it 25 feet from your own shelter.

–B.G.–

[Dirk Rabdau]

Greg –

Thanks for the link. Great stuff.

The rules regarding this have changed quite a bit in the past couple of years as you stated – not in the sense you couldn't use bear boxes but in the sense that it was impractical to do anything but carry a canister since the Ursack did not qualify. I think the PCT community as a whole has been conditioned to think canister since its largely been a requirement over the past decade. Sure there were places where you could use the storage or it wasn't required, but from a practical standpoint, I think carrying form Kennedy Meadows to Sonora Pass (or beyond) made the most sense.

Now, I would be the first to state this: that I was glad to have a canister in bear territory rather than to deal with tying off a Ursack. I have both, the canister I have still can take considerably more food than the Ursack. But that is more a function of the canister. The advantage of the canister is convenience and peace of mind in the Sierra.

Does anyone know if the aluminum insert is required any longer or does the regular ursack (sans insert) suffice?

As long as the Ursack is effective, I am all for carrying one. But in some cases, I would probably still just take the canister for convenience.

[Hiking Malto]

Acually, picking it up at MTR, Vermillion or Red's would keep you legal. I will likely carry one from Kearsarge on because it fits in my resupply plan better. Now if the Ursack is reapproved then it's a whole new game.

There is no mention of the Ursack in any of the documents that I've seen.

[Robert Perkins]

Greg, Are you hiking the PCT or JMT this year? Are you from Atlanta? If so, have you hiked or ran any with B. Turner "Phreak"? I hiked with him last year on the JMT. Just curious. FYIW, I agree on the reasoning for allowing the PCT'ers a 'pass' on tha bear can in the Rae Lakes area. They are usually going thru in Late May – June when the JMT'ers tend to pack it out from July on to Sept.

[Hiking Malto]

Hiking the PCT and I'm from Canton, just north of ATL. Yes, I ran into Phreak on the AT in NC, expect to see him out on one of my training hikes on the AT prior to leaving.

[Robert Perkins]

Tell him 'Hobbles' said hi, he'll know who you are talking about! Thanks.

Carry on with the Ursack debate….

[Dirk Rabdau]

Greg –

What I remember about the post office down in Independence is that it (a) closes early and (b) weren't too fond of the thru-hikers as all of their supply boxes quickly overwhelms their post office. Can't say I blame them much.

I resupplied there as well – it's really a lovely hike just to go out at that pass – I thought the lakes were beautiful.

Thanks again for the info – interesting to hear how things have changed. Must admit that I recall the days on the trail fondly – probably more so in retrospect than on many of the days on it.

Dirk

[a b]

The Ursack S29 All White 8 ounces volume 650 cu inches
Bear Vault 500 41 ounces volume 700 cu inches
Garcia Backpackers cache 44 ounces volume 615 cu inches
Bearikade expedition MK2 37 ounces volume 900 cu inches
Counter assault bear Keg 49 ounces volume 716 cu inches

Even with the aluminum liner at 10.8 ounces the Ursack all white S29
for a total weight of 18.8 ounces… Slam dunk.
I hope they get approved. So long as they have a reasonable success record
and it gets more people to use them thats a good thing.
Having crammed a Bear vault 500 into my Go Lite Pinnacle for the PCT
believe me.. i would so love to use an ursack!

[Author]

Posts