Replacing Long Johns with Insulated Down Vest/Jacket?

if yr not planning to hike in it … down will provide much more warmth than the merino

i use and exl under an atom lt synth just fine … itll provide more than twice the insulation as the thermawrap

If it is simply your "safety" piece for warmth, then go for it.

But if you want better next to skin comfort and some stink control, and you don't have another base layer (is this replacing your Beartooth, or just an extra?), then you better keep the merino in your pack.

Tony,

What does the entirety of your layering system consist of?

What temperatures/conditions are you expecting?

Are you expecting to get your down gear wet?

You have posted in the past your concerns about getting down gear wet and have packed additional "safety" layers if in the event it did get wet. I think you're being slightly overcautious and could very easily eliminate an article from your layering system by practicing more safety and diligence in handling and storing your down gear.

Unless it's going to be downright chilly and damp for an extended period of time I think you could eliminate the Thermawrap parka and solely use the EX Light jkt as your dedicated insulation. Hike with a windshell or rainshell over your BPL Merino wool in the daytime and wear the EX Light down jkt. over that- all under your shell when not hiking (ie. breaks, lunch, camp, sleeping under your quilt). This is a better utilization of all your layers, simplifies your kit, and cuts out weight. Comfort is subjective, but those 3 layers would be good for me down to about freezing just standing around.

Right now you're carrying in your pack a merino layer that provides little warmth as a "safety" layer- it's better suited worn next to skin.

Perhaps consider this:

BPL Merino Wool 'long john' (always worn next to skin)
Montbell EX Light down jkt. (insulation)
Windshell/rainshell

Unless you sized up on your Thermawrap to layer over a light down layer, it's probably not going to layer very well over the EX Light.

It is all about multiple layers, not just one monolithic bit of loft. Base layers move moisture out and away from your skin while keeping a warm layer of air. Successive layers should continue to move moisture and keep cold air away from that cozy inner layer. I think putting a down layer and two more layers of shell material under a similar synthetic layer would trap moisture in the down and wouldn't be as versatile as the wool mid-layer. I use Power Stretch as my mid-layer, but your wool will do the same thing. What is purely lighter is not necessarily warmer or good for moisture management.

I think a lot of people go too light on the insulation layer with the thinner tops like the Thermawrap and Patagonia Nano Puff. They are great garments, but if you get to camp and they don't provide what you need for warmth, the weight is wasted. I got caught in similar work-arounds trying to make them work and went with the next rung up for synthetic insulation, with jackets in the 16oz range. I think vests for summer use where it isn't so cold but you want that extra bit for cool mornings, camp after sundown, or sleep. Vest are good for day hiking backup insulation too. I see a jacket more for shoulder season warmth.

down under synth actually is best for moisture management …. same as a down bag under a synth over bag

Once again, you guys force me to be clear with myself and you in reaching out for help. :)

I should clarify on what I think I am trying to do and how I want to use this and under what conditions.

Yes, I am pretty conservative and cautious about my gear…erroring on the side of warmth, staying dry, and safe.

My clothing/layering system is:

1. BPL Merino Hoody, which I wear next to skin

2. REI Convertable Pants

3. Thermawrap Jacket for Insulation Layer (I will not replace this with down)

4. 3.5 Oz Non Breathable Windshirt with Hood

5. Fleece Glove

6. Intergral Deisgns Primalid Insulated Hat, for sleeping only- too hot to hike in

7. Injinji Hiking Socks (I sleep with these on & sleep in my cloths)

8. MLD Poncho Tarp, rain chap, and rain mitts: could sleep with mitts & chaps on

9. BPL Merino Wool Long Sleeve long johns, top and bottoms for next to skin warmth while in camp or while sleeping. (I have yet to be in a situation where I needed to hike with these on for any length of time).

So when I posted this, I was thinking in terms of getting the most warmth for the oz for while standing around in camp at night and to maximize warmth while sleeping under my Jacks R Better Sierra Snievler 25-30F Quilt in a MLD eVent Soul Side Zip.

I have used this system down to 22F comfortably and to 17F being chilled in Iowa, last Thanksgiving…no snow, no rain.

I am thinking of getting the 2 oz Down Goose Feet to add warmth for my feet to replace my 4.5 oz Integral Designs Hot Socks, synthetic.

The systems works fine for temps 35F and above, which covers most of my 3 season trips in the Sierras.

I am looking to push the limits of what I can do in the shoulder season, temps 32F/Freezing and lower….have more camp comfort from the chill of the night while standing around or sleeping.

Figured, if I am carrying the weight of the BPL thermas, I might as well get as much warmth as I can.

So when sleeping, I would be looking to wear the BPL Merino Hoody as next to skin, Montbell Down Vest or Jacket over that, Thermawrap over the Down Vest/Jacket, Windshirt over all of this if temperatures were cold enough to warrant.

Currently, I would do all the same, but have the BPL Long Johns next to skin and then BPL Hoody and everything else over that.

Not expecting down to get wet, if that happens, I am really screwed, but relying on my Thermawrap to give me that 1 layer of protection. Thus far, on the few times that I have been hit with reain, I have been very good about keeping everything dry. Only way I see getting my down wet is if I fell into a river/stream.

Hope this clarifies and please call me out on anything that you think I might be overlooking.

Appreciate all of your suggestions and advice.

-Tony

"So when sleeping, I would be looking to wear the BPL Merino Hoody as next to skin, Montbell Down Vest or Jacket over that, Thermawrap over the Down Vest/Jacket, Windshirt over all of this if temperatures were cold enough to warrant."

BPL Beartooth hoody
Montbell Down vest or EX Light jkt.
Thermawrap
Windshirt

This sounds like a good system for your expected temps- nix the extra pair of BPL long johns since they're only serving as pajamas, which really isn't necessary.

*Sierra Sniveller. You're packing it, why not incorporate this into your layering system for camp use? You haven't mentioned this option yet. Worn over you windshirt, Thermawrap and BPL hoody you're very well covered for shoulder season.

Would the Thermawrap worn over your BPL hoody be sufficient for you in the shoulder season (<32F) at night under your quilt? That pairing should allow you to be comfortable into the low 20's with your 25-30 rated quilt assuming you're insulated well from the ground and drafts.

I guess I keep coming back to different ways to eliminate extraneous items and weight, in the end it's your comfort and your hike. I think you've narrowed things down pretty well Tony, you are pretty dialed and experienced.

Eugene,

As always, appreciate your input.

Yeah, I have been staring at the quilt and thinking that wearing it in camp would definitely solve a number of issues….just have to get over the vanity issue of looking uber dorky and being the stay puff mashmellow man! :)

Duel usage, right?

Key to saving weight.

If I geek up and wear the quilt in camp, that should take care of many and issue and allow me to ditch the long johns for normal three season, plus 32F temps.

So perhaps what I am doing is maximizing my warmth for weight carried for the shoulder seasons…like I said, I have tested out my current system down to 22F comfortably. Thinking Down Goose Feet would make what I have perfect. (I am a cold sleeper).

Just have to see if the Monbell Jacket or Vest will fit under my Thermawrap jacket.

Ah, half the time, I wonder if all of this is a mental exercise in gear XXX!

And yes, think I am pretty dialed in, but it never hurts to question everything from time to time.

-Tony

I'd replace the MB Thermawrap with the MB down Jacket (not the vest) – unless you're going to need a synthetic jacket while on teh move. Down will "sweat out" & get wet when hiking W/ a pack.

Keep the long john bottoms. Besides warmth they'll keep your sleeping bag cleaner.