Looking for a UL Down Jacket

Hi PJ:

Good to know that you too have found both jackets to be comparable in warmth. I will definitely stick with the Thermawrap.

But I am not really all that sober… hmmmm… the MB Alpine down jacket looks pretty good for colder weather use… AAAAAHHHH!!!!

Ben,

You might have guessed it. I have the MB Alpine Down Jacket (NOT the new UL version).

Here’s my take on it. Very POOFY. Makes one look like the Pillsbury Pop’n Fresh Doughboy. Very warm. Excellent construction.

I have an old, occasionally used, but very clean Eddie Bauer Kara Koram Down Parka (never stuffed or compressed), with two stitched-through offset down layers – supposedly good to -40F. My gut feeling from using both, but NOT doing a side-by-side comparison, is that the MB Alpine down jacket keeps me nearly as warm (though it lacks the parka’s hood and length).

I can’t really use the MB Alpine down jacket if i’m going to be active, at least winters here in CT; upper New England would be a different story, but still probably not if i’m hiking a trail. It’s good when i’m still, e.g., hoping to spot some owls on a cold winter night.

My personal feeling is that any jacket this warm should really be a parka with a hood – but, i knew this going in. When it’s cold enough for me to use the MB Alpine jacket, i’d prefer a hood to my heavyweight OR Gorilla ‘Clava.

Just my two cents.

I reread this thread and didn’t see the Mont Bell Alpine *Light* jacket mentioned. It seems they have 3 models: UL, Light, and plain Alpine jacket.

I just pulled the trigger and bought an Alpine Light. 4 oz. fill, 11+ oz total weight.

Maybe not quite as nice as the WM Flight but I saved $120 or so (bought at campsaver.com for $113).

This model must be pretty new; I couldn’t find but one review, and that was at MontBell’s site.

..especially Montbell. Buying from their sale racks is like getting Patagonia quality (IMHO) at 60%off.. I also have the Montbell UL Thermawrap and highly recommend it. It is amazingly warm for its weight. At 0’C I wore a poly short arm T-shirt, the thermawrap, and a cheap PU rain jacket at the summit of Fuji; chest comfortably cool, legs cold. Replacing the T with a Wool#1 zip top would keep the combo light and add a few more degrees. Full-zip rain pants would have kept my legs warm, so I bought the Red-Ledge; they are a great value.

Like our other poster, for somme reason I really want the MB down UL too, maybe because the Thermawrap is so good I want to experience the down version? ..especially since the 2006s are on sale here for about $80.

I used to carry a 20oz TNF down jacket, now I carry four thin layers; wool#1,fleece,Thermawrap,WB/B shell; much more versitile, and I can loan out components to cold companions if necessary.

Montbell makes great stuff.

Western Mountaineering gets better feathers.

I have not sampled most of the (many?) other manuf. that create down goods…but I can say, without a doubt, that the largest, poofiest, feathers have come out of a Western Mountaineering product. I have never seen down that substantial in my years…and I have owned quite a few items with down as insulation.

The only reason 2 feathers came out, was that I ran my 17-ounce, 32 degree bag through a washing machine!

Scott,
I also believe WM gets better down than MontBell; I’d like one of their Flash Vests! For my bags though, I like to sprawl and stretch in my MB baffles. MB did upgrade to 800FP for 2007 clothing, and rumor is the bags will also soon be 800FP.

I used a MB stretch bag in 2005. It was very comfy. But when I placed it next to the WM bag which was much lighter, but nearly twice the mass, I decided that I would prioritize my sleeping needs. Warmth and comfort on hard ground were tops. The stretch feature does nothing to enhance these needs for me. I also noticed that if I am warm and not being poked in the side by a root or rock, I generally sleep much more still and do not make use of the stretch feature. Finally I noticed that when I do roll over, that it is perfectly fine if the bag moves with me in a cacoon-like fashion rather than shifting my proximity within the bag.

So in the end, shifting the weight from the extra material comprising the stretch feature in the MB bag to extra padding seemed like the better way to go for me.

All that said, Montbell does make great stuff at prices that are reasonable. Increased fill power will only add to their great brand name.

If you want down fill,look no further then Western Mountaineering flight jacket. It is pricy but you get what you pay for. I think I paid 175.00 on sale last year.

About 4-5 years ago, i gave a premier UK dealer a call about purchasing some top notch European gear and sending it over here to the US. He wasn’t interested, but what was interesting was his take on US vs. European rated down. His attitude was a tad condescending towards all things American (or i should more correctly say all things USA.), so i took his comments with a grain of salt, but they certainly sounded reasonable to uninformed me. I’d love to hear what WM and Nunatak have to say in response to a summarization of his comments which i’ve detailed below.

Here is essentially what he related to me:

1. US & European down (including Montbell) use two different methods for measuring fillpower.

2. The US method changed some years ago. The result was that the exact same quality of down that rated at 750FP 10-15yrs ago is now, due to additional “fluffing” (his word) with hot air and pre-measurement tom-foolery is rated at 800-850FP.

3. Down which is rated at 750FP using the European method will be rated at 800-850FP using the US method. Conversely, down rated at 800-850FP via the US method will only rate at 750FP when subjected to the European method.

4. The additional loft provided by the US method is IMMEDIATELY lost when the down is placed into a piece of gear, returning the 800-850FP to at best 750FP.

5. He just laughed at claims of 900FP and said his previous comments applied equally to 900FP down, i.e. it would only be rated at 750FP if the European measurement were used.

6. He didn’t appreciate US Marketing hype and the seemingly unethical attempts to attract buyers with misleading claims. To this i would whole heartedly agree if his facts about down measurement/quality are correct.

So, IF this fella’s facts are correct, is MB using a better quality down? Or, are they changing how they rate the down? That is, are they using the US method? [Note: these questions are NOT a slam on MB. I own a lot of MB gear and clothing – love it all. Maybe not the lightest or warmest in its particular class, but extremely functional, WELL MADE, and perhaps a better VALUE (perhaps the BEST value???) than other top notch brands.]

Miguel (or others), is a similar change in FP indicated by MB in Japan? Let us know, kudasai.

How does the loft of the new MB 800FP garments/gear cp. to the previous year’s loft for the same garment/piece of gear filled with 725FP down? Do the measurements of loft bear out a change in FP? Are the same number of ounces of down used in the new year’s models vs. the prev. year’s models?

Sorry only have a lot of questions and no answers.

Does anyone out there have an authoritative response in agreement with the Brit’s comments to me or refuting his statements? If so, please reply. If you have references or links that substantiate your info, all the better.

[Sorry, my “old-timers” is acting up and while i remember the conversation very well, i can’t remember his name, his company, whether it was four or five years ago that we talked, nor can i even remember what piece of gear i called about initially (i think it was a line of bivies unavailable at that time in the US, but now available from BaseGear.com – not sure though), but, i do remember that, we soon got to talkin’ ’bout sleeping bags and down quality].

The PHD website has a bit about testing:
http://www.phdesigns.co.uk/techdown4.php?

PJ,

You might enjoy looking over this
Down Test site. This is the company that I had my Cuben Snow 1200 Down tested by.

Anyone can send them Down and for a small price they will test it for you. They test using several different methods and you pick the method.

Neil and Bill,

Many thanks for the swift reply.

pj

Bill, where did you get 1200 down from?

MikeB