BPL for Trail Running?

I really don't know of any sites. I typically learn from talking to others and reading people's blogs. Even then, the focus is rarely on gear, but on training and nutrition. I think that's the beauty of trailrunning/running in general; despite what companies would have you believe, it isn't really about gear- I think running is about as simple as it gets…if you let it be. Most of the SUL clothing discussed here works well (windshirts, etc.), but unless you're running in pretty extreme conditions, even clothing is minimal/optional. I've been watching videos of Tony Krupicka winter running in nothing but a beanie, tights, ls top and gloves…at below 20 degrees in the snow.
Unless you're ultrarunning unsupported or out there for hours and hours, what do you really need besides shoes that fit, a pair of shorts, and a water bottle?
I have my preferences, but I find these things to be highly subjective.

What gear specifically are you wondering about? I think plenty of people here could give solid advice.

Edit: I'm not trying to come across as being cryptic, but my experience has led me to less and less gear. I.E., I don't really have a rain jacket for trailrunning anymore, unless I were running a solo 50K or something… I've never found one that won't soak me from the inside-out. I think it's easier to just be wet than wet and steamy with a floppy, heavy jacket on. I use a Marmot Ion windshirt, but even that typically overheats me when running and rarely goes out with me. The most upper body insulation I can handle is a Patagonia Cap1 with a synthetic T over it.

So I guess the question is, gear for what? What conditions? What distances?

I pretty much agree with Craig.

There is some gear involved at longer distance running.

What length of running, time wise, are you talking about.
2 hours?
12 hours?
multi day?
Are you talking unsupported or supported (organized races).

I can tell you what I do if you answer those two questions.

Time wise greatly depends on the trail (it’s really stead where I live). My running is generally of a longer distance, 12 to 20 miles unsupported but I would like to go into the 25 to 30 range (also unsupported). I don’t have many questions for my short days (5 to 12 miles). That’s easy shoes, socks, shirt, shorts, glasses, water bottle (optional), and iPod (optional).

Here are some of the things I’m trying to figure out.

1. Rain Jackets. Obviously running in a traditional rain jacket doesn’t work. I’ve tried wind shirts but they don’t work that well. What I am looking at right now is the CAMP Magic 4 Runner jacket. It looks like it should work but I’ve never seen one in person or know of anyone who’s used one. Or I was thinking of altering a DriDucks Micropore Rain Jacket so that it fits half way decently.

2. When hiking my snack food is a mixture of peanut butter, ground chia seed, cocoa powder, and a little peanut oil to make it creamy. It’s really tasty and packed full of energy. I normally store it in a zip-lock bag and eat it with a spoon or with sesame crackers. I would like to use it long trail runs but I am really not interested in having to stop to eat, carrying a spoon or chock down some crackers. I have thought of using a bottle of sorts, but have found that I can only get at 2/3rd of the mixture without a spoon. I’ve also thought of making my own pouches (think GU). But that seems a little wasteful. I would prefer that any system I end up using be able to be operated with one hand (sometimes I use poles on really steep climbs).

3. Now this is kind of a personal question but how should a guy wear compression tights, privates up or privates down. You would think I would be able to find the answer on a running site or magazine somewhere, but so far nothing. On a related note: I don’t want to hear about how guys should not wear running tights. They are comfortable. Close your eyes, I’ll be out of your line of site shortly.

4. iPod Nike+, Google My Tracks or GPS for keeping track of my runs. I know how accurate the Nike+ is on road runs, but is it any good on trails? Related Note: How do you run headphone cables when running (if you listen to music when running).

I have many other question, but I’ll leave it at these. I’ve been able to find answers to all my training, nutition and shoe questions. But stuff like this, nothing.

I mentioned time rather than miles because that takes into account the terrain.

1. Rain Jackets
I rarely wear one when running. It won't keep me dry because I perspire quite a bit.
I bring one more for wind and hypothermia than simply rain.
But I almost always bring one of these two items with me depending on conditions:
a. Golite Wisp windshirt (100g)
b. North Face Triumph size XL (183g) I oversized this because I sort of consider it a running "tent" and only bring it when I'm concerned about hypothermia conditions.

2. Food
up to 12 hours or so I only consume gels and Hammer Perpetuum. Beyond that I might eat cliff bars, cookies, potato chunks or instant mashed potatoes.
peanut butter and nuts would sit like a lead ball in my stomach after a few hours of running, never use them.
I use the 5 serving Hammer gel flasks to carry my gel.

3. I don't wear compression tights so can't answer your question. I wear shorts down to 45* or so then put Capilene 2 long underwear underneath if its colder.
I generally run with a Capilene 1 equivalent upper. Always long sleeve for sun protection. If its a bit cold I will pull on a Capilene 3 shirt or equivalent before a windshirt because it breathes better.

4. I never run with music or things in my ears. Prefer to be more aware of nature.
GPS can be off as much as 5% on trails depending on switchbacks and other sharp turns, dense trees etc.

5. Water
you didn't mention this. will you carry all water from start to finish or find refill points. the most water I generally run with is 68oz (48oz on my back and 20oz in my hand). Water weight is a big deal on long runs.

6. Gloves and Beanie
if its cold I always bring these and put them on before my Cap 3 shirt or windshirt. gloves are really nice for helping you feel warm but not too warm.

http://www.trailrunnermag.com/forum/

If you're already running 12-20 miles at time on trail I would think that your own experience will tell you if/how compression tights work best for you.

I wear short shorts with sewn-in brief…zinc oxide in the cracks and creases before long runs to prevent chaffing/monkey butt.

Food: I like bars and homemade Gu. I mix almond butter with agave nectar in 2×3" ziplock baggies. Usually I just eat bars or commercial gels (I like Clif). I also like cookies and homemade date/nut bars. Sometimes Jolly Ranchers or other hard candies are good to get rid of cottonmouth/get a little sugar kick.

I don't use music or a GPS, wearing a watch less too. This is personal, but I just like to run without any feedback but from my body. I like simply running…no indication of pace or speed or time, no music to distract me, just a head trip.

I run in the rain but rarely use a jacket- usually just a synthetic LS w/fleece or wool beanie, gloves (thin fleece are good because they insulate OK when wet). As I said, I get soaked anyways from the inside. All a rainjacket can do for something as intense as running is stop wind chill and trap some heat but it will never keep you dry. I'd only carry a rain jacket if I were doing something big and/or expected to be a out long time in potentially bad/cold weather. I've used Driducks, I think they're as light/breathable as it gets for running. But again, I haven't used one in a long time on a run. Usually I'll carry a breathable windshell instead of a WPB/WP jacket.

For longer miles with more food/water/gear, I really like the Nathan race vests. I have the HPL 20. They have the least bounce/most stability of anything I've tried so far.

I'm no expert but I love talking running so keep asking questions if you have any.
I've had great discussions/debates just on the subject of music vs. no music….

When I am on a run long enough to bring water I have a Salomon Advanced Skin S-Lab Pack that carries 50fl oz (this pack is awesome by the way, so comfortable). If I have to fill it up on the trail I use a Polyester 1µm Pre-Filter, a Cuben Fiber cup (both MYOG) and Aqua Mira tablets, together they weigh 0.5oz. As for time, my last long run I did was 20.01 miles with 2985ft elevation gain (the flattest trail in the area) in 2 hours 56 minutes at a pace of 8min 49sec. That trail was a 4 mile loop so I left 4 water bottles a quarter of a mile in and threw them into the back of my truck at the trail head when I pass it. That was this fall. There is a lot snow here now so I have been skate skiing.

Craig,
I like the Jolly Rancher and the almond butter with agave nectar in 2×3" ziplock baggies idea.

Ah… where to find this information?

I am not into long distance trail running, but you may want to check out some Adventure Racing Websites, you may find some ideas there.

The best AND the worst running Website is LetsRun.com. You have to search for the gems inside all the hateful posting that goes on. Sometimes a few of the World's elite will post there, but most of the elite do not even read the site, because of all the negativity.

If you need rain/wind jacket eVent is your best and most expensive option.

Compression shorts are a personal thing. I have never really researched them because I do not like them, but it seems most long distance runners do not use them, and some who run shorter distances (5K or less) do. It seems most point their goodies down, but then that is something I have not really looked at (or care to). Do what is most comfortable. If you do not like the look, you can wear super thing running shorts over the compression gear.

From my limited experiences with GPS, it would seem best to turn on the Tracks function and select the shortest time interval to update. I have never run with headphones… too distracting and potentially unsafe.

For up to 25 miles, there should be little gear needed other than water and maybe some small clothing items. If you run constantly, your body's internal engine will adjust. If you stop a lot, then that is a different proposition.

I guess you need to take Nike's advice and "just do it."

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/1272/?skip_to_post=7847

That's a link to homemade goo by Mike Clelland on his site. I've yet to try this one as I haven't bothered to track down brown rice syrup in my area. I have friends that make similar ones that work for them.

i think frontier pro is a great thing to take on runs. if u know you'll encounfer water sources, no need to pack water on your back. just wrap the frontier in a 1 liter platy wrap with rubber band and put it in your waste or small belt pack.

Also montbell makes a really nice low profile lumbar pack that can hold some bars a windshirt and i even attached my down vest to it on along run in the indian peaks.

In general though seem to enjoy running more the less stuff i have (a lot like backpacking) so id say shoes are about the only truly important gear for trailrunnning and some people dont even use those!

"just wrap the frontier in a 1 liter platy wrap with rubber band and put it in your waste…"

That just doesn't sound right at all.

–B.G.–

I hesitate to recommend it but the ultra running mailing list (ULTRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU) can be a good resource for long distance trail running. Most folks on the mailing list run long unsupported training and adventure runs. No question is too intimate or personal. The cliques and politics can be bad.

My answers

1) I live in Colorado so there is no need for a rain jacket. I use a Patagonia Houdini for light rain, unexpected snow, and wind. I have soft shell pullovers for winter running conditions (snow/cold/wind).

2) For unsupported long runs, I use mostly energy gels and gummys. I usually carry an granola or a fruit/nut bar if I feel like eating real food. I also keep ginger candies if my stomach goes sour.

3) I'm a girl so I really can't answer the question. The mailing list would be more than happy to answer your question.

4a) Foot pods are not accurate on the trail. GPS watches are better. Good enough? Depends on your needs.

4b) Most online running logs will connect with Garmin and Polar watches. I keep a paper log. Distance is less important than time. I have several routes so I compare my times over the months.

4c) I don't run with headphones outdoors. Indoors, I route the cable from my back.

ChrisG

I can't imagine doing any trail running greater than an hour without carrying water/fluids. Maybe my body needs more than others because I can go with little else but I can't go without water.

"Not to be too insulting but I’m not interested in “looking” like a runner; I want to be a runner"

"As for time, my last long run I did was 20.01 miles with 2985ft elevation gain (the flattest trail in the area) in 2 hours 56 minutes at a pace of 8min 49sec."

Dude! You already are a 'runner', great pace over the distance. There are a lot of roadies who cringe running a measly few hundred feet in elevation gain spread out over a marathon distance.

It's good to hear someone already being the part instead of worrying themselves about looking the part from the get go. Sounds to me like you don't need to do anything differently. Just keep doing what you're doing.

Everyone's advice above has been spot on. I live in a desert, so the only thing that comes with me on a trailrun typically are shorts, shirt (optional), shoes, Buff, water, and occasionally fuel depending on the distance. I can't imagine running extended periods of time in wet PNW weather like you do. How do you manage moisture!? I just stand still afterwards, stretch, and let the warm air dry me like a kiln.

There are a few companies selling sub 10oz. eVent shells geared towards trail runners and adventure racers which are popular amongst fell runners in N. Europe for their improved breathability and protection from wind and rain but I cannot imagine those jackets being able to handle the amount of water vapor transfer a body pumps out on a long hard run.

Eugene thanks for that; I know I am a runner. That comment was more pointed at the Men’s Health/Runner’s World crowd and the trendy gear, high gloss, “how to get perfect abs” image they push. Which is funny because my favorite running kit looks pretty trendy itself. Think of what a head to toe Salomon S-Lab kit would look like and you’ll get an idea (I look fast…he he).

Too answer your question “How do you manage moisture!?” currently I don’t. The place I live in is at the terminus of four major canyons. One from the North that almost reaches Canada, one from the west that reaches Puget Sound, another that connects to the desserts in the eastern part of the state and one canyon that goes south west that touches some pretty high altitude. Needless to say the weather here is very unpredictable. It’s not uncommon to be five miles in at 2500ft, its 80 degrees out on a beautiful day and get surprised by a heavy rainstorm (a very cold rain storm), it sucks.

I own several wind shirts and I am not stocked on getting caught in the rain wearing any of them. They wet-out way too quickly. Now all of these wind shirts have great ventilation. The problem is that the material on the shoulders and back are not water resistant in the slightest. Now the rain jackets I own have almost no ventilation so there out of the question. In a more perfect world I would be able to find a jacket that is maybe eVent, MemBrain Strata, or some other semi-breathable fabric with highly breathable stretch panels on the sides, open pit vents, a large back vent, vented pockets and a few other venting features. The closest jackets I have found so far are the CAMP Magic 4 Runner (which I have never seen in person. I’m just trusting the data) and the Salomon XT Speed II (which I also have never seen in person and I have yet to find in the states). I know there has to be more options out there. I am not the only runner who doesn’t like getting stuck in cold rain. Do you have any brand/models of eVent running jackets that the fell runners are using?

You mentioned carrying a Buff. Other than as a hat what benefits do you get from one? I usually don’t hear a hat (I know I should).

On a positive note I have had a few questions answered so far. I looked at the Hammer Gel Flask and it looks like it should work great (thank you Art). As for men in compression running tights, I’ll try pointing down. I really like how tights perform and it makes sense. On a related note if you haven’t seen anybody in miles and think you’re all by yourself. Try adjusting yourself. An attractive woman will pop out of nowhere and look at you like you’re a creep (it happens every time). On the Nike+/GPS front I think I’ll stick with My Track for the Droid 2. It’s a GPS program from Google and it seems to work well enough. I just wished it would give me a pace like the Nike+ does. I’ve received a lot of recommendations on packs and hip belts. I appreciate the input but I’m going to stick with my Salomon Advanced Skin S-Lab pack. I can do cart wheels in this thing and it won’t budge. It’s a bit on the expensive side and a little difficult to find, but if your will to spend that kind of dough I highly recommend it.

Some thoughts…

My son who is a post collegiate distance runner never uses a GPS. There are certain routes that he does know the mileage. Keep in mind his races are 1500m – 10K. But the principals apply to any race. He often runs over 100 miles per week, running at least 6 days per week and some weeks 7 days, with the 7thy being an easy run. Typically his training is:

Timed running: running for a specific time (e.g. 1 hour) at a certain mile pace. Over time you will be able to dial in your pace.

Temp Runs: running for 20 minutes at about 25-30 seconds less than the 5K race pace. The time or distance will change for the race one is training for. Usually a 45 second break between tempo segments.

Easy Runs: Usually the day after a race. Easy pace of 10-20 miles.

Intervals: Done close to races and usually later in the season. Shorter than race distance that are often at race pace or even faster.

I think the use of technology depends a lot on personal style, goals, and whether or not one is statistics oriented in training.

I used to track mileage, time, pace, etc. pretty religiously. I've shifted from that now, with mileage being the only thing I really keep track of- it's hard not to as most of my runs are on regular trails for which I know the distances. I've increasingly thrown out the technology and enjoy just running by feel.

I don't even track time much anymore. I know this is the Holy Grail of most running, but I find I care for it less and less. Which really doesn't affect me, as I'm not an elite, and as long as I have a ballpark figure of how long it takes me complete a given run, I'm fine. Getting down to split times, minutes, and seconds doesn't really matter for me; as long as I know I'm running a pace that will insure I make cutoff times, that's all I'm worried about. Ultimately, I don't view running as competitive- it's more about meditation and personal struggle for me.

Part of the reason for giving up the watch on a lot of runs was a sense of "false" feedback it created. I'd be on what felt like a really good run, look down at my watch, and realize it wasn't that good of a run after all…my pace being slower than usual. Or the reverse: winded, feeling terrible, then suddenly realizing I was making good time. I figured I'd just start running by feel alone; if it felt like a good run, then it was a good run…no comparing against a clock. This works fine for me as I have no specific goals about achieving times/paces, only distances. As long as I know I can run a 50K with a steep elevation profile in about 7 hours, it's all I need to know.

Music is a similar issue. I've had some runs where it has helped, but generally I regard it as an artificial input that can potentially mess with my head. If I'm feeling low, I'd rather feel low and work through it on my own than use music for a boost. I've also had times when I was feeling good but a song totally wrecked my energy. Better to run with my own thoughts. I also feel it's important to not disconnect from one's environment and thoughts. We're disconnected enough- I run to re-connect to myself and the world.

Very subjective, I'd love to hear everyone else's thoughts on these things.

Runkeeper is free until the end of the month.

http://blog.runkeeper.com/mobile-app/runkeeper-pro-is-free-through-the-month-of-january

It does the tracking for you and saves it to their website. I’m a sucker for stats and bar graphs, but it hasn’t been enough to keep me motivated lately. Time to cut more crap out of life to make room for experiences.

"I've also had times when I was feeling good but a song totally wrecked my energy."

Fugazi is usually my answer to avoiding wrecked flow. I definitely don't find motivation in gadgetry, I have no qualms about turning off my iPod midrun or leaving it uncharged and abandoned back at home.

"Ultimately, I don't view running as competitive- it's more about meditation and personal struggle for me."

I do my best to keep my trailrunning and the process somewhat pure, free from excessive distraction, the rut, ego, things of that nature. However, I do run fairly consistently with a pool of 3 other runners and we spur and encourage each other in our running, often having similar races throughout the year. These guys keep me honest in terms of: 1) Not letting me slack… they're fit! 2) Adding a healthy element of competition that only improves me as a runner. 3) Mixing up the runs and routes and not sticking to what's comfortable. The social element of jabbing about everything that comes to mind over a long run with a bro is welcomed and I'll gladly tweak my regular routine to accommodate.

"Part of the reason for giving up the watch on a lot of runs was a sense of "false" feedback it created"

I found what helps for me is to turn on my watch but not look down at it until after the run. It's deflating to be pushing the pace on a section of trail wrecking the legs only to look down and realize I'm barely under typical effort. My psyche is fragile at times and the GPS watch can play devils advocate. I'm lazy at charging the thing, and when it goes off midrun I'm usually pretty stoked.

"I also feel it's important to not disconnect from one's environment and thoughts."

True. It is for this very reason I choose trails to run on. If I'm going to dedicate myself to an activity I want to spend it immersed in an environment that I feel comfortable engaged in, the: road, lights, cars, exhaust, traffic signs are all things that I don't particularly enjoy surrounding myself with on a run.

I feel a bit like a noob posting on this thread with some of you distance runners, ( i think my longest run ever is somewhere around 8 miles) but here you go.

I can't comment as to nutrition as I haven't had to worry about it yet, water has been good enough for me so far.

As to the time keeping – I have a garmin watch and use it almost every run, but i too have found that it can play against me sometimes, I prefer to not look at it and still need to figure out how to turn off the little beeps that happen every mile, they drive me crazy. Before I had the garmin watch, I used to use the GPS app on my phone and it was nice because I couldnt see it while running anyhow. I actually liked that, but the sweat, rain, possible dropped phone issue led me away from using it.

Music- I recently moved to a small town in missouri where there aren't any nearby trails. ( I refuse to drive longer than I will actually be running ) so most of my running has been on city streets. I occasionally run in the unpaved alleys and through the cemetery. That may sound weird, and sometimes it is, but man it is the most serene and quiet place to run if you don't allow yourself to think of the heartache that is represented there. anyhow – I never listen to music on the trails, I'd much rather hear all the sounds that nature provides and like the idea of blending in and sorta being enveloped in that environment. To me it has a very natural and almost primal feeling associated with it. moving quickly, quietly and fluidly through wilderness is a truly awesome feeling. However, in the city I find that I like music alot. It distracts me from all the people and cars etc. Plus if you see someone and you don't want to stop to talk you can always act like you didn't hear them. yeah, i know, but running is sort of a cleansing experience for me and the last thing i want breaking that up is small talk with someone that i only kinda know. I find that I don't listen to much rock, when running I generally like stuff without words or jam bands. I have listened to Miles Davis, Branford Marsalis, Beethoven and some spanish guitar while running.

I'm a bit of a gear nut, who isn't on BPL? What amazes me are the old guys that you see running around in a cotton T and some of the least technical clothing around. did you read the article in trail runner about the guy in his 80's running a race in montana? he wore an army canvas rucksack for pete's sake! kinda makes me wonder about spending a bunch of dough on things that aren't necessary….

While I may be sort of a struggling runner and not the most disciplined man, I always enjoy reading about others thoughts concerning trail running as i think people who really enjoy trail running are a unique bunch.

FWIW, I run trails for exercise and may eventually try a race but nothing like what most of you guys are doing. My longest trail runs so far are probably in the 1/2 marathon distance range. Given my short distances and generally great weather where I live, I pretty much just run in wicking t-shirt, shorts, shoes and maybe bring a water bottle or head lamp. If I'm running, even in the cold or rain, I can't handle any extra layers; I'll cook.

All that being said, I have experience with some of the other things you've been asking about from my main endurance sport which is long distance paddleboard racing (not the stand-up kind but the prone kind- like paddling a surfboard).

I regularly use the hammer gel flasks for gels or homemade mixtures and find they work great. Very handy, easy to quickly squeeze to get a mouthful of goop, push the cap down and be done with it. Stow it while running with the nozzle pointed down to get gravity's help with pushing the contents towards the nozzle.

With respect to GPS, a handful of my training partners have been happily using the Garmin Forerunner 305s and 310s for the last year or two and have been pleased with the results. Measured distances, pace, times, etc. have appeared to be pretty accurate for us.

As far as music and that stuff goes, it's a mixed bag. On shorter paddles (15 mi or less), I find I don't really need it. On longer paddles (up to 35 mi so far), I REALLY like having it and find it to be a mental life saver. Nothing helps pass the time when paddling in the middle of the ocean for 6 hours like some good tunes. The ipod clips to the back of my shorts; I run the cord up my back, under my shirt. I have a really small clip that attaches the headphone cord to the back of my t-shirt to help hold it in place while I'm working.

So, like I said, it's not running but it might be helpful…

Craig,

Nice post. It comes down to why a person runs. If one aspires to be a competitive runner (there are many categories), then yes technology helps because most competitive runners set goals, and goals are not easily attained without a plan for continuous improvement, and the progression of that plan usually must be measured.

If one only runs for the enjoyment of running, then technology can be a barrier to the enjoyment of just running. I am not a competitive runner, but have been toying with the idea of getting into some master races, and time goals would be the reason, and that would require the use of some technology. Although I stopped running competitively decades ago, I still enjoy running in a manner similar to you.

I think this applies to backpacking too. I rarely hike with any electronic technology. A lamp and sometimes a camera on most of my trips are the only exceptions. Once in a great while a GPS. Never, ever a cell phone, MP3, SPOT, PBL, etc. For me it is just a distraction. Even a campfire is a distraction to me. But there is nothing wrong at all with bringing these items, if it suits one's style.

I understand the “connecting with nature” or one’s self aspect of trail running in regards to not using technology and listening to music. I’m sorry but I like technology and I like listen to music for various reasons. For one I have very little sense of speed, distance or time (which means I should probably not be running). It is very easy for me to have way to high (or even way to low) of a pace for a given trail or distance. As long as my play list is built right by listening to music I am able to keep a steady pace. Also if I am able to look at my watch, phone or iPod and get a sense of how I am running it helps keep me out of trouble. There has been many times where I looked at my numbers during a run and was amazed at how little I had actually gone for how tired I was. It was a good thing I knew this because it informed me that I needed to turn around and try it again another day. If I just relied on what my body told me, there would be no way I would be able to pull off the times or mileage I do safely. When I brought up the question “How do you run headphone cables when running” it wasn’t to discuss if I should run while listening to music, it was literally about the head phone cables. Do you have the cable behind you, in front, under or over your shirt? I’m going to run with music, I just don’t want to be beat to death by a stupid cable.

On a different note: some of you have sent me massages with info on running jackets. Thanks, some of these look promising.