Wonderland Trail Gear List

Craig:

Truth be told, except when treating water overnight, I've never actually waited four hours (or even two) when I used Micropur. Like you and Mike, I am still very much alive. OTOH, there was always the nagging wondering while on the trail… hmmm… are any of the protozoa multiplying in my gut?

The tough thing about water treatment is that most of us will never really know:

1. If we didn't get sick, was that because of the efficacy of our water treatment? Why, lots of people don't treat their water at all and they do just fine.

2. If we do get sick, was that because our water treatment failed us? Or because we (or our buddies) didn't wash hands thoroughly enough?

I daresay that most all of us who use chemicals just do that "seat of the pants". But still, I am a bit taken back by Mike's very, very definitive statements. Can (or should) we really be that emphatic on methodologiesthat're really more art than science?

"1. If we didn't get sick, was that because of the efficacy of our water treatment? Why, lots of people don't treat their water at all and they do just fine.

2. If we do get sick, was that because our water treatment failed us? Or because we (or our buddies) didn't wash hands thoroughly enough?"

that's what makes water treatment so confusing

and, some people can be infected without symptoms

maybe there are Giardia swimming around in your gut right now

+ 1 to Jerry for a clever pun. I would add we need a forums Steripen, but based on non-scientific anecdotes, it wouldn't be reliable enough

Oh, maybe you're suggesting that I suggested that the reason they're flaming each other is that they're infected with Giardia?

Good one!

Note to self: Shake Jerry's hand a lot if / when we hike together. Mwahahaha…..

I have been toying with the idea of rebottling my AM. Just curious what kind of bottles everyone uses. Was also curious if it matters if the bottle is clear or not, or does the AM have to be stored in a dark container? And how much does everyone rebottle? Are the bottles it comes in just heavy? Mine weighs just under 3 oz but I have used them some.

Thanks for the tip on using less AM on the WT. I am paranoid about critters in my water and actually use 8 drops of each per liter.

I agree with Mike, the drops are able to be moderated to suit the waters (apparent) natural purity. The tabs are not, and can lead to your water being overtreated. Plus, it can waste expensive treatment supplies.

As for everything stated needing scientific clarification: my dad was very into science, and was an aerospace engineer most of his life (then retired and took his love for science and applied it to farming the last 25 years of his life). He never was a stickler for demanding my opinions or theses be backed up with documentation. I'd expect less stringent demands from a laid back Internet forum filled with gorp eating, nature loving, backwoods exploring hippies (of one type or another) like ourselves. :)

And Craig, no need for paying at the door…it's a tarp!

(edited for science)

Technically Mt. Rainier isn't in the North Cascades of Washington….

It is in the Central Cascades of Washington.

Anyhow….while Rainier does have cleaner than average water it isn't necessarily safe throughout the park. While I will drink from springs I can see originating out of the ground you do need to consider the source and how far it has traveled. While horses and pack animals are rarely seen in the park (most of the park is not open to them) there is plenty of pooping bears, elk, deer and other animals. As well the water sources can be downright nasty if you must drink skanky pond/lake water in late summer/early fall – since many of the rivers should be avoided due to glacial till (polishing your kidneys is not recommended….lol!)

As always drinking untreated water is a HYOH thing. YMMV and all.

The bear poles Rainier has installed are some of the easiest to use you will ever encounter. When Rainier went to the backcountry camps now used each backcountry site got a privy, water source within 1/10th of a mile (usually) and a bear pole (or two if there is a group site). The camps range from small 2 site ones to massive sprawlers (say near Sunrise). Anyhow, the pole is just that, a pole that plunks down into a concrete base. In early season we have beat the rangers to the poles even – they lay them down in winter. Not hard to install either (you won't have that issue though!). The pole has a 4 plex on top to hang food bags on. It comes with a long pole made of metal tubing of sorts (pretty thick and heavy really) that you use to hang your bag on said pole's arms. Easy peasy! Once done one time you will be good to go and have mastered it….and after your trip will curse every time you must bear bag again by hand.

They spoil us!

I have been spoiled on the bear cables in the Smokies already… They really are handy, just have to watch out for all the little critters…those squirrels are a bit, well…squirrely…

"…just have to watch out for all the little critters…"

Add a 3' steel leader ahead of your bag.
They can't chew it.
They can't climb it.

Domestic animals are the ones that ruin water supplies. Not wild animals.

Wish we could outsource our beef industry somewhere else so they'd stop destroying everything they're ranched on.

not sure what your definition of ruin is, but wild animals can pass on Giardia (muskrats, beavers to name a few)- dead "wild" animals in a water source can also "ruin" water for drinking

I do have a Outsak UL that I sometimes carry. 3.7 oz stainless steel mesh sack with a heavy duty hook and loop top closure.

The problems are that some of the bear cables have branches that make accessing the food bags simple for the little critters in the trees. Now I have never had my food stole off of a line, but I did witness a squirrel making off with my buddies unattended Cliff bar one time…Can you imagine a squirrel doped up on an energy bar…that's almost scary… :)

One trip on the Hoh River when the winds shifted in the evening we got to smell 'Le Dead Elk' all night long. Most likely a cougar stash on a small spot out along the river. We saw cougar tracks the next morning at dawn. Man that thing STUNK gag……hate to know what it was doing to the water ;-P

In Rainier I do often use one of my Ursacks – it keeps the mice and birds out of the food. Most of the camps though are mice free (or low on them) though there are a few camps that are bad, bad, bad. The ravens though at Rainier are spectacular. Knee high and gorgeous.

I guess then with Ravens and bears, an Ursack may be the smartest way to go…I would hate to hang my food bag and it be safe from bears but an easy target for a raven, OTOH, if I hid it in rocks the raven may not get it, but the bear more than likely would…

Hhhmmm…

– – – – Whew!

The tablets when used like directed make the water taste like chlorine. If I can taste chlorine, the water is over treated. That is how I determine it is "over" treated, by using my taste senses.

Mankind has been drinking untreated water since we climbed down from the trees. It is only in the last 3 decades of humanity's time on this planet that we have been agressivly treating water in the wilderness.

I have begun hiking with just a one liter bottle, and there is a LOT of available water in the Washington. I consider Rainier, with all it's glaciers and heavy rain a place with VERY safe water. If I treat at all (and very often I simply drink untreated water that I feel is safe) I treat it with re-packaged aqua mira.

I do NOT wait the time recommended in the instructions, I wait much less time.

(more on these issues in an up-coming book)

Looking forward to said upcoming book Mike!

Hi Eugene! Nice to talk on Peter's iPhone!!!

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More feedback:
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Backpack- ID Sailboat Pack Cover 2.70 —-NIX and replace with a white plastic HEFTY trash compactor bag (2.2 oz)

Clothes- Shirt L/S- Grey Ultimate Sports 12.30 poly/wool sleeping shirt —- QUESTION: What is a sleeping shirt? Do you mean PAJAMAS? Please know, you will be fine without pajamas, and you'll easily save 12.3 oz

Clothes- Slippers- Hot Sox w/ blue foam 6.20

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NIX

Clothes- Underwear- REI MTS 2.10

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These should be listed under clothing worn, or is this an EXTRA pair of undies? No need for extras

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Easily NIXED.

Kitchen- Camelback- 70oz 4.40

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NIX! You are in circumnavigating Rainier, a place with LOTS of water. No need for 70 oz of water capacity. 1 liter is fine.

Kitchen- ** Gatorade bottle

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One liter bottle is all you'll need.

Kitchen- Stove- Primus Alpine Micro 4.10

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NIX and replace with alcohol and a fancy feast cat food stove.

Kitchen- ** Aquamira Tablets

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NIX and replace with AquaMira repackaged.

Sleeping- Silk Liner 4.70

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NIX without any issues of warmth.

If I go with the GG Gorilla pack, I'll use a pack liner instead of the cover. The cover seems like a better option if I use the Osprey Exos since the Exos will absorb some water weight without a cover.

The extra long sleeve shirt is just for sleeping. I'd rather not sleep in my hiking shirt. Plus, some nights it will be hanging to dry while i'm sleeping. It WILL be replaced with something lighter by the time I go.

The underwear thats listed is the only pair im bringing. The list in my OP is not broken down by gear worn / gear carried. Rather, its my complete list (more or less).

Still on the fence about the camelback. Yes there is plenty of water available. The camelback is just to fill and have avaiable at camp. I wont carry water in it.

Not ready to nix the gas stove yet. I've never used a alcohol stove and don't want to learn how while im on trail. I simply won't have time to experiment before I go on this trip. But yes, someday I will convert.

Aquamira…. without getting too off topic here, would I be ok using a half tab per liter? I don't know. I might just do drops instead. I haven't ever used either. Just figured the tabs were quicker and easier.

Silk liner… NIX'd. Was gonna take it just to keep the bag clean. But since im not sleeping in my hiking clothes, it'll be fine.

Thanks for your insight.

Alchy stoves are quite nice for traveling – easy to carry, no restrictions and if you get an easy to use one (like a Whitebox) there is little learning curve. Using one in Washington is not hard, you don't get above 7K and it will be summer anyways. That and you can find HEET everywhere out here…..

Most of the restrictions about alcohol stoves are with the fuel, itself. There are problems with it on airliners, and if there are no gasoline stations or hardware stores, you may not find any HEET, either. Been there, done that.

–B.G.–

jerry, I was referring to the post title 'contaminating every thread', however you may have just discovered a new side effect of giardiasis.

Mike,
There is a certain point at which the potency of any chemical where it reaches non-effective levels. AM drops are about 1/3 the strength of AM tablets. The tablets are an overtreatment in my book, too. There is a danger in going too light with any chemical treatments, as I am sure you are aware. I just don't want others assuming a 1 drop dose will have ANY effect on a liter. It will only slow reproduction of the bugs, possibly without weakening them, not kill them.

That said, as long as you mantain a minimum concentration, not really sure what it is because the chemicals in AM break down over time, it should be safe to kill bacteria. These are easily killed by AM. Gardia, crypto, and ameoba are far more difficult. These I pretty much ignore for good looking water. I often wait 15 minutes in summer, 30 minutes in early fall/late spring, and up to an hour for later in fall and earlier in spring with water temps aproaching ~40F.

Like you I often do not treat water. My worry is the dead things in the water, mostly bacteria. But, in rapidly flowing water, there is not a large chance of enough to make me sick. One of the things a body's imune system was designed to handle. If I can smell the water (use your senses, as you say) it gets treated. Unfortunatly, in the ADK's, most of the water is run off through the matted fabric of the forest floors…tannin colored water is the norm. Clear water at the higher elevations it usually fine. Soo, I treat more that I would like, just to be sure.

My overall strategy differs, however. I use two 600ml bottles, instead of one 1L bottle. This seems to let me balance my pack a little better, if nothing else. Little difference, otherwise.

Overall, I agree with you and Well Said.