New Stove Setup

Scott, seems you have a canister stove but want to try the alcy stove. Since I don't have a cooking setup, its easier for me to just spend the $60. The fact that it includes the stove, a pot, and all the other things that make it a true kit seems quite reasonable. Gonna spend more than that for a stove/pot/canister/cozy for sure. For you, you'd be essentially buying your cooking setup over again. But if it saves some weight and space in your pack, it may be a good experiment anyway. BTW Thank you for describing your current system to me. It is very helpful to hear what combinations of cooking gear people are using together. The Caldera seems like a perfect FB cooking solution. I'd just like to know how you "safely" pour the water into the FB. -Cheers

> The Keg-H comes with a Reflectix cozy.

Do you lift with/by the beerband? I carry LW gloves and a kercheif. Maybe that's all I need.

The beer band lip-guard is a "slip fit", and it will probably do the "slipping" at the worst possible moment.

I found a formable silicone "putty" – Sugru – and bonded two grip/lip sections to the rim. They are Very solid.

The MSR pot grip is easily found, light, and very functional.

And yes, as mentioned, a kerchief and a little care will get the job done.

You can always just get the Heineken cans at the store for about $3, with beer. Get a hole punch, and a tin of fancy feast cat food and make your own to see if you like it.

The cozy made of reflectix is super easy to make. Just go to a dollar store and get a windshield sun reflector and some reflectix aluminum tape at Home Depot for $3-4. You can make one for your pot or freezer bag. They're really effective.

I couldn't see it costing too much if you have some of the supplies. Then again, the system seems pretty popular, tried and tested, so you may just want to bite the bullet and get the real thing.

Yeah, when I first purchased my stove I didn't actually have much experience and imagined that I'd be actually cooking etc. Turns out I'm too lazy and rehydrating meals that I made and dehydrated was much much easier and lighter.

Though I did fry up a couple of eggs on the lid of snowpeak with the F1 at home, just to try it out, and it didn't turn out too bad. Washing the lid was a pain though. The setup may come in handy for frying fish (not sure yet).

I wouldn't worry too much about pouring the water out of the keg. You'll figure something out. If you have to, you can always get some of those dollar store gloves (I think they're for gardening) that have the little plastic nubs on the palm and fingers.

Mountain House… yikes:

Hey Greg, maybe you could take a couple pics of that grip/lip thingy you made and postem' up. I know I'd be very interested in that. I'm better am modifying something than making it. I'll check out the pot grip you mentioned too.

I can see myself possibly building a cozy, but not the stove. Time is not in great supply for me. So biting the bullet is probably more better for me. As I noted to Greg above, I'm not much with building stuff. MH, well, it's there for the buying and saves time. But I can do Ramen for a miniscule fraction of the MH meals and it actually has more calories. I'm never out for more than a few days and I can get proper sustenance when I'm at home. Probably don't have time to dehydrate, but I'll take a look at your link. Thanks for the help. I'm learning and that's fun. And clean up on the trail, argghhh. That is a definite thing I must avoid. Heat water, pour in bag, steep/eat. Stow empty bag. Go back to enjoying the outdoors. Now that's the way I like it. ha.

I've used several canister stoves and they work fine , but i don't like the weight of the canister or guessing the amount of fuel left from day to day on the trail. I have also had issues with course threads and bumping the valve open with the canister still attached. Then there is also the problem of having to watch the pot come to boil so you don't waste fuel. With alcohol you meter out the precise amount of fuel, light and can do other tasks in the vicinity while waiting. The wind screen options are easier to rig for alcohol also. There are several chimney designs of alcohol stoves that simmer well and are also very good on fuel conservation. Actual conditions at 10000 ft 60 deg light wind I get 10 pint boils from 5 oz (weight) about 6 fluid ozs, stored in a small 8 0z aquafina style water bottle. Stove .5 oz, wind screen .5 oz, 550 mug 2.75 oz and fuel bottle .57 oz with flip top for metering fuel easier. I also use a .04 oz measuring cup. 15 to 18mls per boil. (I know handles and measuring cup are over kill)

Warren,
Google 'sugru' and use your imagination.

But getting it is not easy or cheap.

That's why I suggest the MSR pot gripper. Cheaper, almost as light.

James, thanks for the informative post. I'll be checking it out in more depth in a bit. Cheers.

Greg, thanks for all your help. It is most appreciated and what makes BPL a very cool place to be.

As if to confirm I should go alcy stove, it is one of Will Reitvelds picks in the new 2010 BPL staff gear picks. http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/2010_bpl_staff_picks.html

Here's a review WITH video I found while Googling.

http://lighthiker.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/trail-designs-caldera-keg-initial-test/

And here's another one from YouTube that shows how it is assembled and then broken down and put back in the caddy. Pretty cool stuff.

I've got a Caldera Cone that fits my MSR Ti Kettle. I like several things about it: 1) It all stores fairly compactly (as seen in the videos), 2) It's pretty efficient and uses less fuel per 2 cup boil than other set ups I've tried, and 3) it's stable. That last item, stability, is not to be underestimated. Nobody wants dinner dumped on the ground, particularly if you've been counting ounces and haven't got a lot of "depth" to your meal plan. I don't like "tippy" set ups.

My Caldera Cone is also reasonably fast. Recently, I was up on top of a peak with some friends. It was windy. We decided to make hot chocolate. One friend brought out his Snow Peak GST 100 and a Trek 700 (I think it as a 700) mug. I brought out my Cone at about the same time. With roughly similar amounts of water, my water boiled first. So much for the slowness of alcohol stoves. In the wind, his canister stove was slower than my alcohol stove.

Just one anecdote, but an illustrative one: the Cone type systems hold their own against other stoves.

HJ

HJ, which cone can fit in MSR ti kettle?

One would just order the version that fits the Titan Kettle. In use it looks something like this:

HJ

Not sure which one to buy. But I am going to buy one of the two designs. I have had one vote for the H. I like most of its features a bit better. However, it says it does 1.5 cups of water and I need 2 cups. But the more important thing I've noted: the F has a full plastic caddy, which would seem to be a better protective case. The H only has a half caddy.

OK, all you users of the Keg, which one do you think is better? And maybe I should just call AGG or Trail Designs and ask. Thanks again to all who have helped me down this trail.

Contact Rand at Trail Designs and ask. He's probably heard every question there is about the Caldera products, so he is more likely to have the answer.

–B.G.–

Bob, you are right. Thanks allot for prodding me in the right direction.

Hikin_Jim, thanks for sharing. Good stuff there.

This thread has been stimulating and quite informative for me. Thanks to you all. I'll let you know what I actually do. And keep the comments coming.

"Thanks allot for prodding me in the right direction."

With too many companies, it is almost impossible to get a good answer, but that does not seem to be the case with Trail Designs. Rand also seems to monitor some of the discussion right here.

–B.G.–

Bob:

Yep! Been following this thread off and on between Christmas and New Years and web site upgrades, and family, and skiing, etc, etc, etc……looks like folks are pretty much covering the important bits….thanks!

Warren:

Happy to discuss the ins and outs of the various Caldera cone options off-line if you like. Feel free to mail me at randATtraildesignsDOTcom. In the mean time, to touch on a couple of the points raised….H vs F. Just want to comment on your 1.5 cup vs 2 cup observation. Both cans can hold a lot more water than that….750ml for the Fosters and 710 for the Hinie. The 1.5 cup and 2 cup reference is to how much water is BELOW the top of the cone where the heat is. For the Hinie, 1.5cups are inside the cone, and for the Fosters it's 2 cups, with plenty of volume above the cone for more water. This means that the Keg-F is going to be just a little more efficient on a 2 cup boil, but it doesn't mean that the Keg-H won't get your 2 cups boiled….it just may take a bit more fuel/time….but not a lot. The reason for this difference is that the Keg-H cone is designed to pack completely inside the can making it a more compact kit…..but leaving more of the can sticking up above the cone when assembled. The Keg-F cone is taller than the Keg-F can and sticks up above the top of the can when packed, but that isn't an issue because the caddy protects it. The Caddy is needed for the Keg-F because the Fosters can is MUCH more fragile.

So, it comes down to a smaller package that is a little less efficient than a larger package that is a little more efficient……assuming alcohol as a fuel.

Now, with all that said, another comment that was made early on in this thread was the concern over spilling alcohol. This, among other reasons, is why I use Esbit. Esbit is a solid fuel that won't spill in your pack. The Esbit stove (Gram Cracker) is 3 grams while the alcohol stove (12-10) is 16 grams. Esbit doesn't require a fuel bottle while alcohol does (20ish grams). Esbit is a bit more fuel efficient in the cone than alcohol (has more BTUs/fuel weight). Esbit can easily be blown out and reused while alcohol is more difficult to retrieve from the stove. Only considering pack weight, pack volume, and efficiency in the cone, Esbit is the better fuel.

Ok….here's where it wraps back to the previous conversation….the interesting bit with our Gram Cracker/Esbit solution is, that you can run the Keg-F or Keg-H can CLOSER to the Gram Cracker stove than you can the alcohol stove. This means that you CAN get your 2 cups of water with a Keg-H down inside the cone if you use our Gram Cracker and Esbit fuel. All you have to do is raise the supporting Beer Band up a little higher and the can drops lower into the cone protecting more of the can side wall and picking up that lost efficiency. If any of this sounds interesting to you, drop me an email and I'll pull it together for you.

Rand :-)

A few years ago, I bought one of the early caddies. The weight is high for its use as a redundant mug and as a protective case for the beer can.

My preference is the H can with the cozy on it as padding when in your pack.

I bought a couple of the F cans sold as seconds. After about 20 days of use each, they have started to leak slightly at the formed crease that holds them in the windscreen. That is not suprising when heating a disposable can that was not ever intended to be on a stove. Get the H cans and just learn to be careful when pouring.

For stoves, your choices are light, quick to heat, or simple. To save weight, just learn to deal with the shortcomings of something slightly more complex than a canister stove.

I agree with the poster who sees non-reuseable canisters as being wasteful.

About the weight of the empty canister. I made the switch from Snow Peak canister stove to the Caldera-F package and here is what I like.

#1. Same as you… I hated judging how much fuel I had left in a canister. Alcohol is like white gas in that you can see exactly how much you have and when you get home leftover fuel can go back in the master bottle.

#2. Weight… it is less but how much so depends on how much water you boil. I only boil water…. I don't cook so that is obviously another issue with alcohol stoves. You have to carry a second simmering stove if you want to cook. The weight thing is dependent upon how you use it but for me it saved me about 6oz. on average.

#3. Compact. The plastic carrier is nice and protects the fragile beer can & stove. I also use it as a coffee mug with a homemade cozy. The top part I can sit on my coffee and use it as a lid which keeps it warm. Not as good as a fully insulated mug with lid but good enough. I can drink coffee while heating water for my meal.

Rand

Thanks for the explanation of the two systems and the further comment on Esbit fuel. I had thought about Esbit, but that was a while back. I’m glad you explained it for me. I'll be learning a bit more about it this weekend. I think what you've shared above will help many other people understand the difference between the Keg-F and Keg-H. That's a good thing.

Joey

Thanks for your inside user info. There's nothing like practical use with a product. After spending more time learning about alcohol stoves, I see they really aren't hard to use. You just assemble, put fuel in, light fuel, get hot water. With the canister stove, you do almost the same thing. Except when you have an empty canister, its just dead weight. It’s not good to carry dead weight.

Kevin

I also appreciate your comments on the use of this cooking system. Sure makes it easier to see how useful it is.

Happy New Year all. And thanks for the PM I received on this subject too.

Well, after some serious research and ideas from you all, I decided to go with a Caldera Keg-H. It really seemed to be the best option for me. Fast, easy, and very light weight; a total package with nothing else to buy (short of denatured alcohol). I do mostly weekend trips and with minimal cooking events that means I don't need to carry much fuel. A fuel canister for a canister stove weighs about what the whole setup will weigh with fuel for an overnighter. So I can go into the field with minimal weight. That suits me just fine.

I spoke with Rand at Trail Designs and he helped me to understand all my options. In the end, in addition to the Keg-H I also purchased a Gram Cracker stove so I can try out both cooking options. It is very light weight and somewhat more efficient than alcohol. If you are thinking of going to an alcohol or wood-burning stove, Rand and the guys at Trail Designs can take care of you. Though I haven't had a chance to use my newly purchased stove, I can attest to the wonderful customer service and the excellent build quality of the items I received. And the documentation that comes with them is also quite good as well. Give them a try. And check out their new website that was just launched this week. These guys obviously want your business.

I have an older Caldera Cone that I bought used. Love it, and it's pretty intuitive, but I'm curious about what the instructions might say. Does anyone have any documentation they can give me a link to? I looked on the TD website, but I didn't see it. I'm sure it's really obvious and I'll feel foolish once it's pointed out.

HJ
hikin (no "G") DOT jim AT gmail DOT com

Hey Hikin' Jim,

I looked around the TD site a bit and did not find any thing either. I bought the Keg-H and it came with instructions for that particular stove. I'm not sure what cone you have though. I think there are two things you should do. The easiest and best are email Rand at Trail Designs since he's the man. He knows everything there is to know and he can also help you assesorize the new "old" Caldera Cone you have too. The other is to look at all the photos here – http://www.traildesigns.com/about/gallery10 There are many different configurations shown and they may answer some of your questions.

If that doesn't get you where you need to go, feel free to PM me.

BTW – Finally got some denatured alcohol and am going to go out in my back yard and test the stove out with the alcy and some esbit. And make a little lunch while I'm at it.

Sheesh. I shouldn't look at pictures like that at work. They make me wonder what the heck I'm doing behind a computer and not out there.

That's a good idea to email Rand.

I look forward to your report.

HJ