Going tentless

Glad to have found a thread I can jump on – I have been tarp camping, sleeping usually just with a quilt for the past two summers. I sleep without fear of molestation by charismatic megafauna, but this year I expect to find myself where there are a LOT of rattlesnakes and some scorpions to boot.

I have heard stories and even konw someone who shook their sleeping bag in the morning and scorpion fell out, but still the question remains:

Should I use an enclosed shelter in snake infested (not just an occasional rattler)lands instead of my preferred minimalist setup?

Thanks!
GRT

Gregory, rattlesnakes are pit vipers. The pit is a heat sensing organ. Rattlesnakes will sense you as too large to be prey. They have no interest in you. Rattlesnakes are not aggressive by nature. Most of the places where I tarp camp are in rattlesnake country. Rattlesnakes should not be a problem if you have a clear area when you lay down at night.

Gregory where is this snake country? Usually such reports are over blown and you are lucky to see one.

I haven't tarped at all, but I must admit I'm confused by references to a bivy under a tarp. I'm claustrophobic, so having a bag that zips shut around my face is a bothersome concept. Is a bivy necessary at all times under a tarp? Could a larger tarp eliminate the need for a bivy? Also, what about the condensation issue–condensation happens on the inside of the bivy, too? I guess maybe the weight savings is good enough, but I thought the whole idea of the tarp was to have better ventilation and reduce the whole condensation issue.

@flyfast aka Dr. Science:
Thanks for the confirmation that that snakes aren't interested in me even while I dream away. That's generally my point of departure, but when it comes to being on the ground with my yes closed one more raional explanation helps a lot.

@hyperslug:
I will be in river canyons where Oregon, Washington, and Idaho come together. Very hot and dry. Snakes for sure, but of course I might not even see one just like I might not see a Grizzly in the Bob Marshall, but I still hang my food and carry spray.

Cheers
GRT

Diane,

I'm 6' even and use a Gatewood Cape as my tarp and I do so without a bivy and haven't had any issues. If it looks like we might have heavy rain I'll throw in a tall kitchen bag to put over the foot of my quilt (I've found that's the only part of my body that gets too close to the edge of the Cape when pitched.

Whether or not you need a bivy really does depend on the size and pitch of your tarp. I used an 8'x10' tarp for my first foray into tarp camping. With a tarp that size I doubt a single person would ever need a bivy as long as you pitched it reasonably. On the other hand you might need a bivy if you're using an 5'x8' tarp.

My suggestion: Pitch your tarp in your yard and put paper down to represent where you'd be sleeping. Turn on a sprinkler and see if (and where) the paper gets wet. You want to have it right before you're depending on it in the woods.

I think this question and thread pops up every month. I'm pretty convinced that certainly with an 8×10 tarp, but also with a properly pitched smaller tarp, that you can forego the bivy for precipitation-related concerns. BUT, as this thread with snakes indicates, there are other factors to your shelter. I leave my bivy at home when I tarp in spring/fall when cold temperatures and bugs are not issues. In the summer, I use a bivy as bug protection and in the winter, as an important part of staying warm on the snow with my current sleep system. The main reason I bivy and tarp in general nowadays is to provide flexibility like this.

Bigger Tarp Bonus: the ability to quickly pitch in the rain for a quick lunch break or hanging out in the evening/morning and having a small group stay dry is super clutch. You can eat/drink/cook a little . . . and nobody is crammed into an itty-bitty tent or heading off to bed early because there's no place to stay dry.

I, too, thought a bivy would be a claustrophobic experience, But it's really nothing more than like an extra blanket on the bed — a thin one that's not very warm. It doesn't feel encased and it doesn't cover my face (unless I want it to.)

Hi Gregory,
I've hiked some in the Hells Canyon area and grew up hiking and camping in Eastern Washington. As you say, the Washington/Oregon/Idaho river canyons are serious snake country. I'd say, if you're out for more than a day in the right weather and at low elevation, it'd be unusual NOT to see a rattlesnake. Having said that, I don't take any more precautions than watching where I put my feet and hands, and trying to avoid situations like tall grass where I can't see ahead. No snakeproof boots or gaiters (just trail runners), and I don't carry a snakebite kit. Dehydration and poison ivy are much bigger concerns (also easy to avoid).

I know a couple geologists who did decades of fieldwork in Hells Canyon, and it seems like there's plenty of stories about sleeping outside a tent and waking up next to a rattlesnake. But they may not have chosen their site well.

There's plenty of black bears in Hells Canyon too, but not aggressive as far as I know.

Hells Canyon is beautiful country–I'm hoping to do a short early-season trip next month.

Hi David – I am most likely going to be in the W-T Wilderness – not quite as spectacular as Hells Canyon but well worth the trip and certainly snaky in the river canyons (but without so much poison ivy or oak!). May swing down into Eagle Cap as well up and down the Minam. Depends on river flows, fishing, weather etc….Thanks for the info!
Cheers,
GRT

Plan a meal budget heavily dependent on being able to catch a big pile of the rattlesnakes you are sure to see. Always works for trout anyway.

> Is a bivy necessary at all times under a tarp?

I'm definitely not a tarp camping expert, but I would say no, definitely not at all times.

In the Cascades in summer, bug-proofing is usually a major issue unless you get some stormy weather or a cold snap. The mosquitoes around here can be quite terrible, especially on the western slopes when the tarns are full and the days warm.

My solo bug shelter is an MLD Serenity, my two-person bug shelter is an HMG Echo II insert. If you camp with a tarp, it's pretty easy to string up a bug shelter under it, and with modern fabrics the bug shelters are pretty light. I prefer to have space to move around and if necessary reload my film holders within my shelter, so I like the 2-person cat-cut tarps, since even when buttoned down for storms, they're still pretty spacious. It's too bad the Cuben ones are still so expensive, though.

I've been out on a few nights when I would have skipped the insert had it not been for the bugs, and a couple of nights where the insert's walls, even though they're low, cut the breeze enough on a chilly night to enable a comfortable night's rest… which was continually interrupted by a LOUD snorer :-/

I bought a bivy, when they first started coming out, (early eighties?) I woke up the fist morning, feeling sort of clammy from the condensation and having to pee like a race horse, only to discover that the zipper was jammed and I was trapped. I hate waking up like that.

Anyway, I swore them off for fifteen years or so, before I decided to try one of those OR double bug bivies, while camping in the desert. This seemed like a good idea, I could see the stars and even fit my pack in there, but the netting trapped in the heat and made it too warm to sleep and then the wind picked up and started blowing sand. I woke up after an uncomfortable night with sand in every exposed orifice. I just pulled that bivy out the other day, to have a look, as I hadn't used it since and there was still a bunch of sand stuck in the mesh. I really do like the idea of a lighter pack, but I still don't like bivies. I like having a wind break too, as there seems nothing worse than no reprieve from the wind, be it hot or cold.

"I woke up the first morning, feeling sort of clammy … only to discover that … I was trapped. I hate waking up like that."

Sounds a lot like my first marriage……

I love the tarp. I have an 8×10 silnylon. At first I tried a bivy, I had a nice Ti Goat one. The bivy was well made and very light but felt like a body bag. I didn't like it at all. I also realized, over time that, under an 8×10 I was never getting wet anyway. I have had occasions were big storms rolled through, I just pitched the tarp to the ground.

Bugs were my biggest reason for a bivy. I got an MLD bug bivy for the bug issue. It has a big rectangular bathtub floor and plenty of headroom (weighs 7.4oz).

This spring I got a poncho tarp to shave another 4oz off my shelter. I'm going to try it out with just the bug bivy. I figure if it rains, I'll just pitch it to the ground like I do the 8×10 and it will be fine. If it weren't for ticks, flies and skeeters in my area I'd ditch the bug net.

I recomend a tarp and a bug bivy. This combo keeps you dry from above and bug free with out all the inside condensation concerns.

Re: I tried Posted 04/05/2011 13:38:23 MDT by Douglas Ide (idester)
"I woke up the first morning, feeling sort of clammy … only to discover that … I was trapped. I hate waking up like that."

Sounds a lot like my first marriage……

Well, to be honest, it wasn't that bad. At least it only lasted a day, then I got rid of it and didn't cost me another cent.:)