Inertia – X – Frame: Ultralight Camping Pad

Why the 2oz 1/8" GG pad? To boost R-value?

FWIW, a full size NeoAir normally takes me 13 breaths.

Yes the 1/8 pad is for insulation. I won't need it in warm weather. I have to use it year round with my neo to protect it from puncture ( I have already returned one for leaks ). You must have some big lungs to blow the Neo up that quick. On my thru attempt I found that I really dreaded bloing my Neoup at night. My wife laughs at me and said what else did you have to do? I guess she is right but it still got old.

Keep us posted.
Yeah, the NeoAir gets old. Mine taks about 20 breaths, too. This is for a medium. I can do it with less, but I get a bit dizzy from hyperventilating.
He *must* be talking about a short.

jdm

I'm resisting the urge to infill this thread with adolescent humor since this isn't the g-spot any more.

Anyway, this looks interesting except I'm a side sleeper and it just doesn't look like it'd work for that.

LOL, but don't count it out as a side sleeper until you try one. It is actually not bad.

A NeoAir Small is my normal pad and I blow it up with 9 deep breaths everytime. I find giving it a deep breath, slowly re-inhaling my lungs over 3-4 seconds and then repeating, is the least draining way to go. I prefer this over higher frequency but smaller breaths.

The X-Frame looks good as a summer pad where the 2.5 R value of the NeoAir isn't needed. For colder 3-season trips, I don't think you can supplement the R-value to 2.5 and still wind up lighter than the NeoAir.

It's currently under Field Test.

All I can say at this stage is that the results may be VERY dependent on whether you are the same height as the designer: whether your body matches the bits on the pad.

Cheers

what is the r-value of this pad? seems like it would be freezing with all those gaps..

I think the R-value is 1.0, but assumes you are using a traditional sleeping bag with down on the bottom to fill in the gaps. It would be less warm if using a quilt.

It appears it was built for a 6 foot person although I am 6 foot three and it fits me fine so there is obviously a lot of wiggle room on either side of 6 feet.

I think that the R values are only reported for the pad itself. Given the gaps in the X-frame, I believe that with a full sleeping bag, it is actually just about as good as the neoair. The lofting on the underside of the bag would be considerably enhanced. Down is a somewhat better insulator than plain air of the neoair. A lot depends on how you sleep, of course (side, back, or tummy.)How full the pad is, how much compression on the shell the down would be subjected to(different from one manufacturor to the next.) Soo, I am guessing at least a 2.0, when coupled with most good qualty 30F down bags. The neoair has an internal thermal reflector. Soo, the X-frame may suffer a bit without one. The gaps and holes in the Xframe, of course, would allow the bag to loft in those areas. Whereas the neaoair, even a pound of pressure would not allow this. I am guessin' the X-frame might perform best with one of the MontBell huggers or the like because they seem to have extra lofting in the shell material. But, I haven't had a chance to try an X-frame yet, soo this is guesswork.

My thoughts only . . .
jdm

The R-value of an airspace between about 0.5" and 3" thick is generally considered to be 1.0. Klymit doesn't report an R-value, but a scientific text book (or the internet) will tell you this. So when filled with air, this pad will have an R-value of basically 1.0 aside from the cut out areas. Where there are cut outs you still have a basic airspace, so quilt users would likely find an overall R-value to about 1.0.

When using a sleeping bag that lofts down into the cutouts, your R-value should increase in these areas, but the cutouts don't exist under key areas like your head, shoulders and hips. The cutouts are mostly under your legs and mid-lower back it appears. Accordingly, you're not going to get more than R-1 under your hips with an air filled X-frame. This seems to me to be the limiting factor, because warm legs aren't going to help you sleep if your hips & shoulders are cold. A pad is only as good as it's weakest link. Accordingly, even for sleeping bag users I wouldn't consider this design to be much more useful than a pad that is R-1 everywhere. While I'm just speculating here and I've never used one in real life, I don't consider this pad to be more than a summer pad.

The potential to use argon for colder use doesn't really make sense at this time because if you crunch the numbers you'll see that it's really expensive, much heavier and less warm than a NeoAir.

James: The NeoAir also has internal baffling, so it's not just a big airspace with a reflecting layer in the middle. It's several air spaces plus a reflective layer.

I personally would try using a theoretical short version of the X-Frame weighing about 6oz as a summer pad. At this point, I wouldn't use an X-frame for 3 season use, nor would I use a full length version over my NeoAir small because the weight is the same and I can use my pack pad under my feet with the NeoAir for a warmer nights sleep while retaining the ability to use it in colder conditions also with the right pad under my feet.

Has anyone checked to see if a sleeping bag would actually loft in the dead spots? It seems like the contact points could pull the fabric enough that it's essentially taut over the open spots which wouldn't allow for a full loft. It's also only 1.5" off the ground so that's the max loft you could get, which doesn't lend itself to freezing temps.
My biggest question is how it it to lie on? It seems that if your leg doesn't line up with one of those bars you're on the ground (or like your knee could roll off the bar).
It's a neat idea and I like to see new products coming out, I just wonder how well it works compared to the Neoair.

Yeah, I have three neoairs, in different sizes, of course. I know about the internal "baffeling", I had forgotten to mention it. It is there for the reflective heat shield, sort'a like a space blanket.
I believe it is warmer with a full bag. Rather than speculate, I will drop a note to Klymit and ask.
Thanks!
jdm
Edit 1 (from their web site)
"Loft Pockets: To reduce weight and size while maintaining comfort, durability, warmth, and breathability. Loft Pockets reduce the compaction of sleeping bag insulation, minimize conductive and convective heat loss and effectively capture body heat in the dead air space."
Message was sent.
This was the reply:
James,
I am really happy to see all the discussion of the pad, and would be happy to answer you, however it seems like your questions are very scientific and you would do better to speak with the engineers who designed it, tested it and know this procedure in and out.

Here is what i can tell you until matt has a chance to get back at you (i've copied him on this response) we have tested the loft pockets with a variety of fabrics from my golite adrenaline 20F bag, down to nothing more than a flece bag, and have show that they are in fact warm. While many other companies have added to their pads to try to insulate their pads such as foam, down, or internal baffling systems, the protocol for testing R value is less than standard in this case. This means that essentially the relative value of R values for sleeping pads is very lose. if a pad claims R8 for example, that is probably a very warm pad, especially when compared to a pad claiming R1, however the nuances of R value testing for sleeping pads are not necessarily clear.

Anecdotally, we have taken it out in some more gnarly conditions. I slept on my X frame inside of a Golite Adrenaline 20, with a Marmot Alpinist Bivvy, and stayed warm on a 30 degree night in the high desert in the Wasatch Mountains. I know this is hardly scientific as some people sleep warmer, and not all 30 degree nights are created equal. but such is my experience. Basically through using the pad i think that a very supple shelled bag with lots of loft space makes your loft pockets the most efficient. never the less we have always said this is a 3 season pad. If I were going in very cold conditions I would put closed cell foam on top of an X frame for added R.

I am hoping Matt can get a few minutes to give you some more scientific data and clear things up a bit. But either way, I hope that this clears things up for you a bit.

–Brian

I will add Matt's reply when it is received.
IF it is ever received…must be quite busy….

Just some quick observations pending BPLs more thorough review. 1) This pad can easily be shortened to any length you desire with just a hot iron and some scissors, or for a more professional job, use a straight edge and a razor to make the cut and guide the iron. Cutting it just below the torso region shave 2 ounces from the pad; 2) It is indeed designed for a specific height, and if you are the wrong height you may definitely want to shorten it, especially if you are a back sleeper. This is because if your heels don't land at the end of the pad, they fall between the gaps of the pad. Most unusual sensation (and no insulation). Additionally, if you have the 'wrong' torso length, or curl excessively in a fetal position or other odd position, you may have problems; 3) It is more comfortable than I suspected while lying on your side or front; 4) I can't fathom why anyone would want to inflate harder than mouth pressure, and it's a shame it has the extra inflation valve on it that would be messy to remove but must add close to an ounce of weight; 5) Though 20 inches wide in the shoulder and hip area when uninflated, it quickly shrivels to around 15 inches when inflated. Pulling it with my hands I could get it to 17 inches inflated, and it may well flatten to wider when lying on it, but this will take two people to measure. I will be surprised (but will report back) if it gets to 19 inches when lying on it. It feels close to my torso width Ridgerest in width, which is 17 inches. I imagine it will be even harder to get to full width if fully inflated using the extra pump; 6) For those of us that use pillows, additional weight could have been saved by having the head region also 'hollowed' out; 7) I find the pad overall to be very comfortable.

> if you have the 'wrong' torso length, or curl excessively in a fetal position or other odd position, you may have problems;

And therein lies the problem.

Cheers

The foam pad over the top of that is probably the way I'd try it. One of the thin GG pads that don't add much weight would probably make it a more reliable bed on slopes or for people who roll around (me).

or if you are a quilt user, I imagine just some small rolls of the thin Evazote stuck in the gaps would up the insulation value without adding much weight. But for the same weight as a Neoair small, I'm not sure that you would gain much additional benefit unless the extra length and less width was something you were after (and you happen to be the right size, shape and sleeping habit).

If anyone's interested, these puppies are currently on sale at a 15% discount at AntiGravityGear.com.

http://www.klymit.com/index.php/products/sleeping-pads/ineriaxframe.html#

Their website shows that they are placed inside your sleeping bag. Interesting concept.

Doug

Thanks for posting that link doug. I could imagine the 'loft pockets' working much better this way as you would not be constantly rolling about and waiting for you bag to loft into the spaces. I doubt it wouldn't work with many close fitting summer sleeping bags though.

I bought one of these in december of 2010 and tryed it out in my back yard on snow and 18 degree outside temp using a 6 moons lunar solo tent and a marmot 15 degree hydrogen sleeping bag with warm clothes on.

I am a cold sleeper and side sleeper. Also I am a big guy-6-2 230#.

I was suprised at the comfort. I do not need the pump to inflate as it is then too firm. I can sleep on my side and back better than I did with a thermarest prolite.
Under the conditions listed I would have been able to survive the night but could feel the cold coming through and for four seasons use I would put a closed cell pad under it. I used it under acutal conditions in Shenandoah National Park last March and the temps were below freezing because the water in my pot froze fairly quickly and I was comfortable. I do think the loft pockets work and did not feel much cold there as I did at the pad contact points. I highly recomment this if you want a thick ultra light pad. I do add extra clothing or pads under my arms when back sleeping.

I just came back from a 5 day hike with one and also thoroughly recommend it.

Despite the fact it looks really uncomforable, with a CCF mat on top I slept really well (just as good as on my neoair). I'm not sure how it would go without the CCF mat in terms of comfort and I look forward to trying it out for that soon.

I was reading through this and everyone (in other threads as well) keep asking about "R value". How is that tested? I know that if you put your hand above a stove at 3" and feel the heat, then you say hot. Put that same hand ON the stove and you say, "emergency room!". So without knowing the "R value" of an x-frame, it seems that by raising you 3" off of the ground with an "R value" of zilch,it would be better than a foam pad that is 1/2" thick with an "R value" of 95. Am I just lost or does it really matter?