Synthetic vs down debate- link

[Michael Febbo]

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11/staying-warm-generally-means-staying.html

had to post this for the picture…

[James holden]

photo from site …

there's a reason why i use my cat's meow … even though it weights 400g more than a comparable down bag and takes up more space than an overweight garfield

fortunately most BPLers wont have to worry about having this happen …

[Josh Newkirk]

Eric

Why did you go for the cats meow instead of the orion

Josh

[drowning in spam]

I have a synthetic REI Kilimanjaro. It's supposed to be good down to 0 degrees, but I wasn't as comfortable as I thought I should have been when temps dropped to the low 20's. And it compresses down to the size of a short bus.

[James holden]

2 reasons josh …

1. the cat's meow is en ll comf rated to -7C vs -4C for the orion

2. but really cause it was on sale

the orion is more of a 25F bag … though it probably handles compression better

eugene … REI overated their bags not too long ago since then they have moved to en-test their bags .. full credit to them for making that step

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

I don't think the article has a very good argument against down. He was foolish for being out in waist/chest deep snow for 3-4 days at 11,000' without having his down bag in a waterproof sack. It appears that he took no precautions against getting his down bag wet. I always carried mine in a waterproof cuben drysack on any trip.

[James holden]

dan … you dont always have the luxury of getting out of yr wet clothing in a bivy situation … i believe that the standard route up that peak has a bivy halfway

like i said … most BPLers wont be in that kind of situation

[Michael Febbo]

Thanks Eric for the pic- I guess I could have tried to do that…

If I got anything from the article it was to use the best tool for the job, and sometimes that is not down (and sometimes it is).
I think we all knew that, but I still think it's a great pic. I'd cry if my Helium ever got in that condition…

[Steven McAllister]

Ditto on the drybag.
I would never consider hiking without my sleeping bag/quilt in a drybag for a number of reasons and that is a good example.

I kayak camp. My hatches sometimes get very wet, but my bag, clothes and food are in drybags so not an issue.

My policy, the only down item I bring is my sleeping bag, everything else is synthetic. If I should soak my sleeping bag I can always sleep with all my clothes on, I may be miserable, but not dead.

I can't carry the extra weight of a synthetic bag.

[tommy d]

Hmmmmm…. what kind of parka is that gentleman wearing?

[Eugene Smith]

Did the climber keep his sleeping bag in a dry bag? Was his Lithium bag saturated before it was thrown into a dry bag? If so, then of course it froze, they were basecamped in sub-zero temperatures in the Alaska Range.

I watched the video of this climb and it was successful and nothing was stated about his frozen bag during their climb, which would have surely ended their summit push. They had to ski back to basecamp 6 miles pulling a pulk sled full of their spent climbing gear through a seriously fresh layer of snow after bagging the 11,300' Peak. His bag isn't necessarily frozen solid like a brick due to moisture transfer in the night from wet synthetic clothing, it's frozen solid from being saturated and thrown into a stuff sack without being adequately dried out. Which like you said, is hard to do after multiple days of climbing in conditions like that. If your damp synthetic TNF Cats Meow bag was thrown into a stuff sack in the bottom of your pack and dragged through snow for hours in sub-zero temperatures it would freeze up like a brick much the same. Down or synthetic, doesn't matter, saturated bags exposed to sub-zero temps will freeze up. Keep your bags dry.

[James holden]

eugene … with my kitty kat and damp clothes … the bag and clothes usually keep fairly dry from body heat at night

if you saw the video you would have seen them drying out their bags in the sun ….

interestingly enough every certified mountain guide ive talked to in the PNW goes synthetic … and theyre the ones who use the gear the most and have every incentive to keep things light

because shiet happens … and one of these days in the mountains you will eff up ….

i posted on the blog above … so well find out one way or another hopefully …

http://team-harro.blogspot.com/

edit …

removed "youd also see that their tents got buried and thats how their bags got damp"

im going post the quetion on the blog … better than making assumption of what he did or did not do

[Lynn Tramper]

"There are climbs I wouldn't take a down bag on and climbs I wouldn't take anything but a down bag on. It depends on the amount of care I can/want to dedicate to the bag and amount of space in my pack."

Good summary. You gotta take care of your down bag.

"if you saw the video you would have seen them drying out their bags in the sun …. youd also see that their tents got buried and thats how their bags got damp"

Again, as in the first point, this is the reason I never, never go anywhere without a bivy bag as well. NZ is a lot like the PNW…it's just not worth the risk, so either take synthetic or a bivy bag. As long as your down bag is kept dry, you can usually survive most situations in a bivy bag without your outer clothing if your clothes gets saturated.

[tommy d]

HA! This written by the King of Armchair Quarterbacks…

>Anonymous said…
>great vid …
>
>there seems to be some armchair quarterbacking on a certain >site as to how yr bags go frozen …
>
>http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi->bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?>forum_thread_id=39853
>
>thanks,
>
>11:06 AM

And what makes this even funnier is the fact that you're using (a) their picture and (b) your claim that "every certified mountain guide ive talked to in the PNW goes synthetic" to make some sort of case against down… when these two guys clearly brought down bags and a down parka. Wearing your green dot helmet again today?

I do agree with you about one thing, those guys made a great video and it looks like they had a fun trip.

[James holden]

hmmm … why not go to the source since they are available …

seems like u are the one whos assuming with the down ;)

[tommy d]

>hmmm … why not go to the source since they are available >…
>
>seems like u are the one whos assuming with the down ;)

HA! I agree with you on both accounts! But that doesn't change the fact that you're making a point with less than perfect info yourself. ;)

[James holden]

guilty as charged … which is why im asking the source

who knows … a polar bear could have come up and marked his territory on the bags

[Konrad .]

"seems like u are the one whos assuming with the down ;)"

What's Tommy's assumption about the down?
It's clear that the bag is down otherwise we wouldnt be having this debate (and he mentions in his blog that its a Marmot Helium), and I'm 100% sure that the jacket he is wearing is a Mountain Hardwear Sub Zero Jacket with 650 fill, in sapphire. How do I know? Because I owned the Parka version of the same model and color before upgrading to a Peak XV.

[Val C]

"the jacket he is wearing is a Mountain Hardwear Sub Zero Jacket with 650 fill, in sapphire."

+1 Mountain Hardwear Sub Zero SL. I have one too.

[patrick walsh]

The first argument and on BL i have seen so far… i only say argument as BL will not let me use a more suited word!! . I am trying to purchase a warm coat for winter camp and stopping and am a bit lost myself between Down and synthetic. I was actually at Wild Things in North Conway earlier in the day looking at a synthetic jacket. I think i would go synthetic for a few reasons, for one the warm even when wet thing seems like a big pro when playing outside in Potentially deadly temps and conditions.

However when i took a look at how little the coat compressed i thought crap i could barely even fit my coat and a bag in my pack if using synthetic. Where does the rest of the stuff go do i get a Donkey? Beyond that the people at Wild Things admitted that they do not temp test their clothing. They did say we have never had any complaints that out warmest coat was not warm enough, and we make stuff for the US Army so my guess is its warm enough????? When i asked what it was rated for first she said freezing and they she said i dont know like maybe 0%? I did not really like these answers to much as i wanna know what i am buying.
So anyway down or synthetic i wannah know so i can buy a coat!!!!

[Josh Newkirk]

go down and wear a waterproof shell over it, just be careful to not get it wet

[. .]

I enjoy the debate between down and synthetics. Rein it in:

Having extensive experience with both, by default, I use 800 (min.) down (meticulously kept dry) for the following reasons:

– natural + more sustainable
– longer life / better investment
– much warmer for the weight
– subjectively more comfortable over a wider range of temps.
– bring on the rain + snow; I have shells for that.

A few notes:

– I find thin down garments to dry equally as efficiently as comparable synthetics.
– Wet synthetics also perform poorly, albeit proportionally better than wet down.
– Has anyone noted the climate in which Nunatak and Black Rock Gear companies are located? ;)

[Author]

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