7 ounce Polarguard-Delta Quilt

Michael-R value, m2K/W, clo, and TOG are just different names for thermal resistance of a specific insulation thickness. See my earlier BPL forum posting http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/3230/index.html?skip_to_post=23752

I am about to make a synthetic quilt from materials I ordered from thru-hiker to the tune of over $100!!! 6 yards of climashield xp, 4 yards of momentum90. All of that material weighs 19oz, but of course I won’t use all of it. I imagine an arc alpinist styled quilt that has a footbox and some pad-securing straps to it, that I can slip over my WM Pod 30 to augment its capabilities in the deep winter months, and use alone in the other three seasons.
(now that I think about it, 2.25″ of Climashield would cover about the same temp range as the Pod 30 and would therefore be a piece of redundant gear…better make it a 1.5″ thick quilt and save some weight.)
Anyway, my MYOG question is this: how did you finish the edges of your quilt? could you get the full thickness of the insulation to pass under the sewing machine?

Joe,

I am a fledgling beginner but I learned a lot, including edge finishing, for this website ….
http://www.kickassquilts.com/MakeTOC.html

Good luck and keep us posted!

Joseph & Michael,

Michael, Thanks for posting that web site for Joseph.

I didn’t do my Quilt quite like the web site does but the instructions seem to be clear enough.

I thought I had taken pictures that showed how I did my edges but didn’t find any. When I do my next Quilt I will take more pictures. My method is a little easier or is easier for me.

Hey Bill, I was wandering how well the quilt covers you with those widths?

Richard,
A couple months ago you stated and / or asked the following:

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Richard stated:
“Now for the controversial part <grin>.

Insulation clo/oz % loft when wet

Polarguard Delta .68 -40
Primaloft Sport .74 -11
Climashield XP .77 -??
Primaloft One .84 -00

500 fill down 4.5 -60
800 fill down 2.5 -60

1. Q – Would you investigate a DIY source for Primaloft One? It would be the optimal solution for wet environments. Brian’s counterpart for Primaloft is Arnie Liati in the Primaloft Issaquah, WA office.

1. A – I could not find anyone that was retailing PL-One. I decided to call PrimaLoft and see what it takes to buy direct from them. I finally found a little time to call and ask. I filled out a form for them and asked about getting a sample of PL – One 1.8 ounce a sq yard insulation. I have had a 5 yard sample request approved and it should be shipped next week. I asked about buying some and pricing but was asked to wait till next week for that answer. They have a one roll (45 yards) minimum if they agree to sell to me. I will wait till I can make a few things with the sample and test them before I buy any if they agree to sell to me. The sample will be enough to make several items to test / compare with the other insulation I have. I will make a Quilt / Liner for my Bivy with some of the PL-1, 1.8 oz a sq yard material so I can do a direct comparison with my other Quilts / Lliners.

I want to do more with the Climashield Combat as I have been surprised (good surprise) with that insulation.

2. Q – Would you let us know what quilt weight you could achieve using 800 fill down for your quilt? It is available from multiple sources and has a much better clo/oz value for dry environments.

2. A – I did a little math to see what the answer to this might be but I need to work on it a little more. I need to figure out the sewing for sewn baffles. The way I have worked with Down in the past was with a removable baffle or side-in silk tube of Down. Doing it that way let me use the Down Tubes for other things but did add a little weight. I need to practice making the baffles a different way and when I work that out I can then weigh the material and add the Down weight for a “best guess” answer. It would seem that the Down Quilt / Liner has to be lighter by a bit. The difference might be an ounce or so over the current Quilts / Liners that weigh 6.5 to 7.5 ounces. The total weight for a Down Quilt same size, same Temp range (40 degrees F) might be as low as 6 ounces using my light silk as the shell and liner material.

3. Q – My experience with synthetic bags is that I get about a 40% reduction in loft after one season’s use and then they stabilize at that loft. The temperature rating drops and stabilizes accordingly. I haven’t experienced more than 10% degradation in my down bags after multiple years of use. No one on the BPL forums has ever compared the loft degradation history between various synthetics. Would you monitor the loft degradation with your quilt experiments?

3. A – I don’t know how I will do this but I will try an watch what happens over time.

4. Q – From your conversations with the Polarguard folks do you know what the Climashield XP loft reduction is when wet?

4. A – The next time I have a chance to talk to someone like Brian I will ask about this and see what they say.

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Bill, hello looks like you’ve been busy with upper body gear. How ’bout a mithril vest? I heard they are really light :)

I’m getting ready to make a silk/climashield quilt. I’ve measured my ARC Specialist/X quilt (down) and it measures much wider than your finished dimensions, 54″ at the widest area (chest). The other dims are similar, but all around a couple inches more.

I’m trying to get as much info before I make a sample. I’m hoping you can give me some detail on how your quilt covers you. Does it wrap around enough to block drafts when near its lower temp limit?

I notice with my quilt if the edges are not tucked under me at least 3″, I feel a cold spot/draft when pushing the quilt to its limit.

I’m much smaller than you at 5′ 7″, 155lbs. I have wide shoulders though, with a 48″ girth.

I sleep with a nightlight torso pad which is placed inside my bivy and then myself and quilt go on top of that. When it gets cold I wrap the quilt around me and use the straps to cocoon myself in. The pad is still under me but not in the quilt wrap. This is the cold weather mode demonstrated on the Nunatak website. I have found this is true in practice providing the best air trap, draft control and thus warmth.

I used some tape on my quilt to get it down to your dims and it really did not seem to wrap around and under enough. I know this is a personal preference, but a cold draft is a draft it seems.

Maybe you are just letting it drap over you and not tucking it under?

Thanks for help, Jhaura

Jhaura,

My quilts are made to be used inside my Bivy. This holds the edges of the quilt next to me or under me a few inches. I don’t move much when I sleep and sleep most of the time on my back.

I am taller than you as I am 6′ tall but my current weight is only about 145. I measured around my shoulders and came up with 47″. This really isn’t much of a difference between you and I except for the height.

When it is cold I use my Down Air Mattress (DAM) inside a Bivy. I haven’t tried my new Bivy with the DAM inside it other than to see if it would fit. It fits fine.

Well, don't ever let anyone say I'm not true to my word …

I took my old 40 degree Ray Way quilt and began the modification process to a "Forshell" style quilt.

I increased the girth by 8 inches on the top, but left the bottom per your model. I have wide shoulders, so I wanted to have the equivilant of a 66 inch girth bag once the quilt was attached to a pad.

I cut the head hole and am working on the closure now. I'm torn between no snag velcro and a button closure.

The quilt is made from two layers of .75 3D and 1.1 ounce light ripstop and the weight of the quilt so far is right around 16 oz. The quilt is plenty big enough for use in a Bivy, but I'm also working on the pad attachement system. I didn't care for the method of stringing lines and cordlocks under the pad …. it's just too cumbersome.

I realize that it's way too much insulation to hike in, however, my Micropuff pullover is too much to hike in also. It should be nice to hang out in camp after dark and on chilly mornings however.

I'll post a few pictures once I finish quilting it.

Thanks for the great design and encouragement Bill!

Mark,
Glad to hear you are trying a quilt that you can also wear. Buttons might be lighter than velcro. I am going to make another one to improve a couple of things. I will make the collar a little bigger and I will use Pertex Quantum instead of silk. This may add a bit of weight but that is OK. It will work better in a little rain.

You are correct to make sure your quilt fits you. I am a little lucky as I am 6' tall but only weight 150.

It was fun hearing Glen on his PodCast talk about being so tall and hiking with Ryan. Everything Glen wears has to be bigger than what Ryan would wear so his gear almost has to be heavier. I am sure Glen pulls a surprise on Ryan once in a while.

I was wearing my Tunic/Quilt around the house last week when the ice storm caused a power outage. My power was off for 20.5 hours back on for about an hour and then back off for 4 more hours. The Tunic / Quilt was just right.

I'm with Glen and you!

I'm a big guy …. and a hobby weightlifter to boot … I've got about 100 lbs on Ryan (only 24% BF), and a couple of inches to boot. I've got a 60 inch girth around the chest and arms … no way I'm going to fit in a sleepsystem that only goes up to 60, 62 or even 64 inches.

I seriously think we need some type of handicaping system based on Girth and Height to level the playing field a bit.

For example … This 40 degree quilt could have been in the 12 to 13 oz range … that's at least a 3 oz handicap simply based on girth.

Then again … it does force us to use our brains a bit, doesn't it ….

I've decided I'm going to stay with the 7.5 ounce superbivy prototype I made several weeks ago out of DWR nylon and Spinnaker for the floor until I decide to go full out and order about a $200 worth of Cuben and Momentum90 for a Bivy and the Cuben for a Poncho tarp.

From my calculations, A Momentum/Cuben Bivy and Poncho Tarp, along with the new 40 degree quilt, will put me Sub 3 with very minimal changes in the rest of my gear system. My kitchen is under 5 oz now … and switching to a beer can pot is the only other big change to go sub 3.

I can very well see where the Sub 2 kit does take away a certain comfort level for night time low temps …. unlike the Sub 5 which has quite a bit more of a factor of safety.

Well … I tried to get some good pictures of my Forshell style quilt, but they all look like big green blobs when I upload them.

Here's a diagram of the modified design I pulled together from Bill's original. I've sewn the quilt, cut and sewn the head hole, and have Velcro, drawcord, cordlocks, and notions on order for delivery next week.

So far, I'm very happy with this prototype … in fact … I may just use it for the 2007 season, at least warm weather trips. This is the centerpiece in my Sub 3 kit as camp insulation and sleeping quilt.

I'll take some pics of my wearing it when completed if I can figure the digital camera out.

Final weight looks like it's going to be around 20 oz with two layers of polarguard 3D.

Hi Mark,

It is nice to see a post about backpacking after the flood of "ranting" about ID.

The drawing turned out good. You are sure on the right track.

Do you have Polarguard 3D insulation and want to use it? I only ask because if you don't have the 3D you might want to think about an insulation that has a higher CLO value. The price should be very close. Using something like Climashield XP or Combat you will get more warmth for the weight. Two layers of XP or Combat will give you a total Clo of 3.2 to 3.3. The weight may also be a bit lower than an equal amount of 3D.

If you now own the 3D I would use it.

I had a 40 degree 3D ray-way quilt that I didn't use anymore …. it wieghed 27 oz … 4 oz more than my 32 degree Montbell #3.

Using that quilt I could make my prototype with little or no investment …

The 3D is supposed to weigh something like 2.7 oz per square yards and I should have 4.72 yards of insluation total, or thereabouts. That should yield a weight of insulation of about 12.8 ounces. The Shell is 1.1 ounce DWR, which would weigh about 1.2 oz, and I have 4.72 yards of shell, so that should be about 5.7 oz … so, that should yield a material weight of about 18.5 oz … so I don't feel so bad about a measured weight of 20 oz after sewing, given seam allowances, etc.

If I used combat, at 2 oz per square yard, as well as Momentum90, with a weight of 1 oz per square yard, the same quilt should weigh 9.4 oz of insulation and 4.7 oz of shell, would yield a material wieght of about 14.2 oz … and that would give me a 36 degree quilt for about 16 oz … which would be good down into the high 20's with a Bivy.

The question I need to have a better feel for then, would be if I could use a .7 oz Spinntex pro, or even Cuben fiber for the shell, and make it a zipperless top bag for around 15 ounces with Spinntex or about 12 oz with Cuben that should be good down to around 25 degrees, given proper VB techniques, and not require a Bivy. A one layer Combat VB top bag could come in at as low as 11 oz with Spinntex and 8 oz for Cuben and be good to perhaps 40?

I should mention that I have used a 45 degree synthetic bag with a Adventure Medical Products Emergency Bivy for three nights in the Mountains that was good down well into the 20's with no condensation problems. (We had to dry out my Son's bag every morning with the same setup … he had a LOT of condensation in the bag). So I believe that the concept of a Vapor Barrier is sound for me with a light wicking layer.

Is my logic sound Bill?

I could use a heavier Insulation with some spare SilNylon I have laying around as a proof of concept prototype I guess.