This is what i have so far.

Patrick,

Regarding your consideration of the FF Helios Hooded vs. the WM Meltdown Jacket hooded, for use in the White Mountains during winter, there is a big difference in the relative value for these two hooded jackets.

The FF Helios is cheaper, 19F warmer for camp chores, and more weather resistant using the EPIC shell option.

Well, you definitely have more warm gear than what I take to the Whites… though there is a huge difference between ice cragging and pursueing a mountaineering route/overnight outing. The former requires more worn insulation (fleece under your shell) while the later does not as your movement generates huge amounts of heat.

Are you planning on using the ski gloves for ice climbing? Make sure they have a full leather palm or they will shred in one rap.

I personally do not like hardshells for mid-season ice, but some people still love bibs and that was a great price. I would not want to go for a summit in them, though you will appreciatte the wind protection.

As for your belay jacket- seriously consider synthetic for your intended purposes. Ice climbing is full of pointy things… screws, crampons, picks. You also tend to get wet (from the inside or out) and a synthetic jacket can handle a few rips and more dampness then down.

Crampons: Grivel G-14s are the standard, though you really need to go to a store and see what fits your boot as that determines everything. Make sure they have good anti-bots.

I'd suggest renting some crampons- swap out dual and mono points for a season or two and get a feel for what you like in different conditions.

Don't forget goggles in the Whites if you above treeline. Have fun!

Edit: snowshoes – the MSR Lightenings or Evo Ascents have great traction and can mitigate the need for crampons in many hiking situations.

Richard, I have been meaning to ask you this for some time and hope it will not cause too much thread drift, but since we are discussing the FF Helios.

At 8 ounces of down (9 with hood) the Helios is comparable to the Volant, Montbell's Permafrost Parka, and Rab's Neutrino Endurance- all jackets often used for real cold (midteens F).

I had always assumed that the baffled structure of the last three jackets made them inherently warmer, but a past post of yours indicated that the difference between a baffled and non-baffled down jacket was only 5 degrees. That does not appear to justify the added weight and cost between, for example, a Helios and Volant.

So, is there any real benefit to a baffled design? Is the Helios sufficient for camp chores into the teens? As such, in the Nano fabric, is it the warmest jacket for its weight?

P.S. I cannot fit a Helios hood over my climbing helmet. Also, the WM Meltdown sure looks puffier than the Helios- if loft was the most important statistic, the Wm would win hands down.

Michael,

The camp chores thermo-neutral point for the Helios is ~2F. A baffled design, with comparable fill up through ~9oz, is marginally warmer if worn as an outer garment. I recommend wearing a hooded wind shirt or hard shell over a sewn-through down jacket / parka to maximize its efficiency. In this configuration, the performance difference between sewn-through and baffled is negligible up through ~9oz of fill. The FF Nano-fabric option, with something like a wind shirt or a hard shell over it, is the most thermal efficient insulation system available. The average difference for =<9 oz of down fill in baffled versus sewn through jackets is about 5%, not 5 degrees. Not coincidentally, the average percentage of the jacket where the down, in a sewn through jacket with large baffles, is outside its optimal density range is about 5%. As the fill weight goes up and as the seam area to surface area ratio goes up, the difference in efficiency becomes greater.

For the Helios general weight category, it has the best warmth to weight ratio. There are other jackets that have better weight to warmth ratios in other general weight categories. For example, the MEC Reflex has a better ratio for garments weighing ~24oz.

can't thank you enough Richard, your answer perfectly addressed my concerns.

Just got back from a 4 hour 15 mile hike with the dogs. No peaks but imop time in the woods is time in the woods and good time at that.

I was stoked to see a few responses to my thread when i got home. More times than not i will be hiking not ice climbing. I think i will ice climb maybe once or twice a month to get a good understanding of what it is all about by the end of the season. My intention in learning to ice climb is eventually being able to do mixed route climbs on my way to the top of various summits and not so much just going out ice climbing, we will see who knows maybe i will love ice? I have also been going to a rock gym twice a week to get a feel for the ropes knots so forth and so on so i dont have to learn that out in the freezing cold. This gear will get lots of good use as i hike everyday 3-5 hours local and weekends head north for at least one mountain day rain sleet or snow 0% or 35%.

So two things. My bibs, Someone said they would not want to wear them for just hiking/mountaineering. I wonder why and what style/type pant would be ideal? I know where to find the equivalent pant same brand same model for $200 just sitting on a rack… been there for weeks. Would that be better?

Second is the jacket or puffy. Although it will mostly be used for stops and for hanging out a minute or two at the top i also would rather it be to warm so it can be used to camp also. From what i understand in the whites with wind it can often feel like -20%-30% ? Someone mentioned the FF Helios is only rated to -2% and the WM jacket is not even as warm as that.

Also i dont have a Gore Tex Shell jacket just the Craft rain coat. With my Gore Tex pants will i be fine without the expensive shell?

I have been spending $250-$500 a week now on gear for a good 4-6 weeks, its getting old!!!! Most of the shopping is done but the last few purchases are pretty big ones i dont wanna screw them up as i cant just get em at Rei and return them!!! Thanks again.

p.s. just tried to post and noticed i cant use my favorite 4 letter word lol?!!!

I am a tall, skinny guy who perspires pretty heavily when moving. Given how dangerous being wet can be in the winter, my primary goal when hiking is to manage sweat- this entails starting a bit cool and avoiding Gore-Tex and the like. I have used Gore-Tex one time in the past 4 winters on a sun baked climb that was half waterfall. I only carry it now when daytime temps will be 30-40, otherwise I don't bother.

For me, hiking uphill with a pack in the Cats, Dacks, or Whites while wearing Gore-tex (or Windstopper, or Powershield) will cause me to sweat. Also, hardshell Gore-tex is a bit restrictive (even with the nice articulation in the Arcteryx pieces) and noisy to hike in. Still, people have been using Gore-Tex for decades and you may find that it works well for you. I wear stretch-woven softshells over Powerstretch baselayers, though I often wear more insulation when ice cragging.

However, when you need a hardshell (very high winds, freezing rain, etc) you really do need one. If it is 40 degrees and freezing rain, most softshells will wet through eventually and even if your bibs keeps your lower body dry, your head and shoulders will not be, which can be dangerous. If your craft jacket fits and is waterproof, I'd use it for awhile as with winter coming you might not need a hardshell jacket much.

As for ice and rock cragging… regardless whether you want to pursue these things as ends in themselves, the better you are at them the safer and easier mixed routes in the mountains will be for you. Being in shape is also very important, but you seem to have that down.

– you dont need a bib unless you are doing serious wet waterfall climbs … Most of the time a good pair of softshell pants will do … Get the stretch weave kind as they are more breathable, not the membrane softshell

– belay jacket depends on the tenps youll handle …. For anything higher than 10-20F id use a synthetic jacket on the mountain combined with a good down sweater/ jacket that fits under it when really cold … Handles moisture better

for anything lower a big fuzzay down puffay is the way to go … Something like a mec reflex or eb fa peak parka

– for rain gear id bring as light as possible because you shouldnt be wearing it most of the time in winter …. Only in freezing rain or wet snow … I just got an OR helium at 6oz … If its raining that hard you shpuld be bailing off the mountain anyways

– now that said a pair of full zip wpb pants are recommended as you can wear then for extra leg warmth … And if yr doing snow belays sitting it helps to not have yr softshell pants get wet … Full seperating zips for easy on/offf and ventilation

– most of yr yime should be spent in either ur stretch non membrane softshell when active … A cheap and very effective method is to use a light fleece and windshirt instead … Colin hailey does this

– when stopped on goes the big puffay of course

I'd recommend a synthetic liner sock like polypro, or, 2nd choice, polyester.
Silk retains water similar to cotton. Plus sweat rots silk fairly quickly.

Thanks again guys all good point to think about. I few things i have questions on but i think i get the answer at my local gear store know that i know what to ask. The down puffy though.. i am gonna have to order this online and will not be able to return it. I wanna make sure i get this right.

As you all know it gets cold in the whites and that will not keep me in the house….. if i have the right gear?!!! For instance i think Tuesday i will head to MT. Washington to scope out a winter snow rout as it has been many years since i climbed it. And i wanna make sure i know exactly where i am at all times. Weather at bottom is gonna be 30% and 13% at the top.. i have not looked into wind yet? My guess is a fleece and wind shirt aint gonna cut it at the top. I am thinking i am gonna want a heavy heavy down coat for this kinda stuff. Can someone explain the dif between the FF Helious Jacket and the WM Meltdown and vapor jacket. Also if FF makes a heavier coat that would be better could you mention it so i can take a look? Weigth of down ounces and all that does not make all that much sense to me so can you just tell me this jacket is warmer at blah blah blah fill.

What gear store are your refering to? Some (Rock and Snow, IME, the Mountaineer) have excellent and experienced staff. Others (almost every REI I have been in on the East Coast) do not.

Down jackets; general rule of thumb = for the same fill power (600, 800, etc) a jacket with more down (ounces) will be warmer.
Other features matter, most notably a hood and the length of the jacket. The greater amount of body area it covers, the warmer.

The FF Helios is warmer than the WM Meltdown because they are similarly constructed jackets with the Helios containing more down. The WM Vapor is simply the Meltdown with a windproof shell.

Go on FF's website; their garment categories are arranged in terms of increasing warmth (and weight and cost). The Frontpoint will be warmer than the Volant, for example. See Richard's reply to my earlier question in this thread about the Helios vs. the Volant.

If you want down for winter in the Whites, I'd get something with 9-12 ounces of 800 fill down, a helmet compatible hood, insulated pockets, and longer than hip length.
The Montbell Permafrost, MEC Reflex, FF Volant ot Frontpoint, EB Peak XV, or Rab's Nuetrino Plus are all options.

You can order most of these and return the ones you do not like. If it were I, I would check to see:

Can I access my harness and belay while wearing it?
Does it go on and off easily over my shell and gloves?
Can I wear it inside my winter sleeping bag without undue constriction?
Does the hood fit well over a helmet and without one?

Search through Richard's posts and you will find info on this issue.

Awesome response that is exactly what i was looking for. You pointed out a few key points i was wondering about?

Thanks again!!!

dri-release base layer. if i was stopping at that temp i'd be throwing on one of two items, either a micro puff pullover or a wild things belay jacket. i would not have both of them with me at the same time. which one i bring is typically a determination made in the parking lot. starting off around 30f, i'd probably just have the base layer on with or without the wind shirt. i'm ok with the extra couple of ounces from a synthetic puffy or belay jacket to know that my heavy insulation is bullet proof. i have not been out in the winter yet in the lower 48 where my synthetic belay jacket has let me down.

lest you think that i am totaly against down, i am not. i do own a nf baltoro and a wm antelope. both have served me well.

one note is that very few big puffay down jackets have a 2 way zip

the mammut ambler i believe does (check with the shop first), has 10+ oz of 800 fill down and is on sale for 240$ … possibly cheaper from other shops

http://www.prolitegear.com/mammut-ambler-hooded-jacket.html

I looked at that jacket and was thinking of going that route. I have read a few reviews saying the thread comes loose all over the coat. Anyone have one of these coats?

Also i was looking into the fill weight of the WM Meltdown Jacket and the sight states a total weight but not a fill weight?

Eric,

I know the status of the double zip feature on two of the jackets that Michael recommended in this thread. The Montbell Permafrost Parka has it; the MEC Reflex does not but the MEC Magma (MECs prior generation Belay) does.

thanks richard, i may be looking for a big fuzzay parka once the after xmas sales hit … i know that the EB FA Peak doesnt have a double zip, which is really too bad

patrick … if youre worried about the durability of the ambler … you can see if you can get backcountry to price match and if they do they have a lifetime warranty on their gear

I know it is fairly new so i imagine people might not have much to say? But the Arcteryx Dually Belay Parks looks nice for my task also. I read a review that said it weighs in and stuffs down the same sizw as a FF volant and is just as warm. Any thoughts?