Sorting out my Winter Insulation choices

I think for winter conditions as you describe (and the fact that you run a little on the cold side), your going to need a relatively robust insulating layer for around camp (or breaks on the trail)

I think your bases layers are solid and I'm a fan of a good mid layer in the winter- you have several to choose from (but I'd only choose 1 :))- my choice would probably be the fleece shirt, looks most close to the Patagonia R1 that I use and have found that to be a great mid layer

you have a hardshell that will work, the only real missing piece is a solid insulating layer- the MB Alpine Alpine would be a good choice or something equivalent- I'd suggest a parka vs a jacket, the hood especially in the winter is very useful

you don't mention hands, but there is a good recent winter hand thread floating around if you haven't got that sorted yet

Mike

Thanks for your insight Mike.

I’m getting the impression that the Nuptse Vest (or perhaps a vest in general) won’t be good enough as a main insulation piece (even if it is really, really puffy), and that I should return it and get a parka instead.

Do people think the new MB Frostline Parka would be adequate for temps down to, say, -20C (-4F), worn with some light fleece and base layer? It has 6.7oz of 800FP down, but I don’t have a good intuitive idea of how much down that actually is.

“you don’t mention hands, but there is a good recent winter hand thread floating around if you haven’t got that sorted yet”

For my hands I’m going to bring some liner gloves with windstopper (OR Backstop gloves – two pairs actually), plus my MEC Yukon Primaloft/Goretex Mitts
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302885383&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442543895

1. your mitss are fine … yukons have a lot of primaloft … also carry a lighter pair of gloves when moving or for setup … use liners

2. return your nuptse … a vest isnt good enought for those temps, go for something 800+ fill

3. the Merrill conductor is fine, it will be useful as a layering piece, or if its really cold you might hike in it

4. at the very minimum if go with the frostline in conjunction with everything else, MB permaforst is preferable, alpine light would not be sufficient for myself… to keep really warm the MEC reflex jacket is a good deal at 269$ canadian (pick it up when you get up there) … thatll keep you toasty below the temps yr looking at ….you wont be hiking in it anyways … just use it for camps and stops … get something with a hood

5. dont forget insualted or at minimum fleece pants at those temps

6. have nice thick socks and liners … and an extra pair to change out of when they get soaked

Dave- I don't have first hand experience w/ the Frostline, but I think it would be more than sufficient for those temps, personally I think the Alpine Parka would be for me, but I tend to be a little on the warm side of the scale, so ymmv

should point out that in addition to your base and mid layer, you also have your shell layer too- it adds significant warmth to the total equation

looks like you have the hand thing taken care of :)

Mike

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the pointers. I just returned my Nuptse Vest. I've taken quite a shine to the MB Frostline Parka, and it's within my budget (just barely), so I think I'll order that soon unless someone steps in and convinces me otherwise. Even though I run a bit cold, I think my fleece + Merrell Primaloft + the Frostline will be more than adequate insulation for my temps. Especially since I probably won't sit around camp for any huge amounts of time.

Eric, thanks for your points on other gear. I'll post my full winter clothing list soon for people to have a look at, but I think I've got your points covered.

Cheers!

Dave,

Your existing Merrell Conductor jacket, when new, would keep you thermo-neutral, while doing camp chores, at ~35F.

Your Merrell Conductor best case condition, in combination with your new Nuptuse vest, will keep you thermo-neutral, while doing camp chores, at ~12F. This is not a viable solution for your -4F target.

There are a few single garments in the $200 range that will keep you thermo-neutral at your -4F target. They include the following along with their suggested retail prices:

• Rab Ascent Parka @ $199.95
• LL Bean Baxter State Parka @ $199.00
• Nahanny Down Jacket Parka @ $174.41

Your consideration of the MontBell Frost Line Down Parka (2010) is the closest of the MB alternatives you mentioned but, this garment will only achieve a thermo-neutral temp of ~16F with a normal UL backpacking base layer ensemble.

If you wear your Merrill Conductor under a MontBell Frost Line you can achieve a thermo-neutral temp of ~-7F which satisfies your temperature criteria but this ensemble is not optimally layered for moisture management. Ideally you want your synthetic layer sized to fit over your down layer and your shell sized to fit over your outer synthetic layer.

All of these temperature values assume that you are sheltered from the wind.

Richard,

I really appreciate your very specific advice (and I have read many of your other postings with much interest).

If you'll indulge me: Do you believe the Montbell Frostline (6.7oz down) + the Merrell Conductor (110g Primaloft body) + my MEC Fleece (similar to an R1) + base layers would be anywhere near my -4F target? Or is my consideration of the Frostline too inadequate? (I've been trying to learn to do the types of calculations you do for myself, but I'm not quite there yet!)

EDIT: I see you added the answer to this to your response above – Thanks!

dave …

mammut ambler 10.5 oz of 800 fill down … $210

http://www.frontcountry.com/site/mammut-ambler-hooded-jacket.html

first ascent peak jacket 12oz of 800 fill down … $225

http://www.whittakermountaineering.com/cat/1045/on-sale/insulation/first-ascent/mens-peak-xv-down-jacket

and the aformentioned MEC reflex …a claimed 14 oz of 800 fill down … $269

http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442630551&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302699049#tab4

Thanks,

hopefully Richard will chime in, but my guess it's just using the jacket w/ a single base layer

here's a good article Will did sometime ago on the Alpine Light, what's significant imo is they way he uses layers- multiple layers that can be changed one way or another, when combined yielding a very comfortable rating

with this system Will was comfortable sitting around camp at temps of -16 F in Yellowstone Park

this is typically how I approach winter weather as well, lighter layers, but when combined yield an appropriate amount of warmth, while at the same time giving you many different options (combos)

Again, thanks everyone for the intelligent discussion.

So, if I may summarize the above:

-Sounds like the MB Frost Line over my existing gear would be adequately warm, although not optimal moisture-wise, according to Richard. However, I do think there is a case for going with a jacket of it's warmth and layering over other stuff, like Mike is saying, as I could then also use it with less layers for slightly warmer conditions. Plus I've taken quite a liking to it.

-Also a good case for getting just one warmer down parka, and some good options have been posted, which I'll check out. Ends up being slightly more expensive when the sources and shipping to Canada are factored in

Dave,
I believe thermo-neutral is a prudent target.

-My calculations assume that you are blocked from the wind. A typical 3 layer winter ensemble loses 60-70% of its insulation value in winds greater than 27 mph (most winter storm situations when you are not in a shelter).

-The calculations assume an average MET rate of 1.75 (mix of sitting and standing). If you are just sitting, your MET rate will be lower than 1.75 and you will not be thermo-neutral.

-Any insulation moisture will reduce its value.

Dave,

I agree with your summary. Most of us that posted in this thread use multiple winter insulation layers in combination. The flexibility and cost saving that scheme offers is for many an acceptable trade-off for the increased weight.

Excellent, thanks everyone. Your advice and insight to my specific situation really helps.

I just ordered the Frostline from Oregon Mountain Community (e-OMC.com) since they had free shipping to me in Canada. Also, when I signed up (for free) as a member, they took 10% off the price of my order, even though the membership discount specifically says it excludes Montbell. So it came to $179 total, which isn't so bad!

I'll be posting a complete clothing list soon for critique.

remember that there is possibly duty on the jackets since its likely made in china … youll find out when it arrives on yr door step

if you havent hiked in cold weather before i recommend the below article … the key in cold weather is to manage your temperature to minimize yr sweating …

http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/the_art_of_not_suffering