Oct 14, 2010 at 2:37 pm #1264402
Looks like this CCF mat is much warmer per weight than what else I've found out there:
With the NeoAir medium, you get an R-Value of 5.5 to 6.5 for 22oz, which appears to compete with the Kookabay downmats on warmth/weight ratio, without the hassle of a pump, moisture, etc. Of course, it takes up more space (if you try to fit the CCF in your pack – who does?).
9oz + 13oz NeoAir medium – assuming using your pack/clothes/platypus and the CCF pad as a pillow. A little bit of additional trimming (since only insulation and not support is needed) can probably drop the CCF down to 8oz.
Any flaws in this logic? This seems like the cheapest and most flexible way to get a winter-worthy pad if you already have a NeoAir.Oct 14, 2010 at 2:59 pm #1654627
@er1kksenLocale: The Western Door
I'm pretty sure just about anyone who uses a rolled or folded CCF pad as their packframe fits them into their pack, myself included. Just saying.
That said, I'm not sure I see much advantage to this over just buying a cheap CCF pad and trimming it yourself. Is the R-value really that much higher (I'm not familiar with the R-value for the standard wally-world CCF…).Oct 14, 2010 at 3:09 pm #1654632
The only flaw I see is the claim of 3-4 R-Value for such a thin pad.
I'm wondering how they get an R-Value of 3-4 from a .39" thick closed cell pad. In this thread, Richard Nisley states that the typical R-Value of a 3/8" (.375")blue foam pad is 1.35. I'm not an engineer, and I realize there are construction techniques that can increase R-Value over the generic blue pad, but to practically triple it? For 9 oz? I have a full-length Thermarest Ridgerest that I've trimmed to mummy-ish dimensions that now weighs 9.28oz, but is ~60% thicker at .625" and Thermarest is only claiming a 2.6 R-Value for it.
Claims aside, I like the idea of a CCF for warmth + NeoAir for comfort winter sleep pad system. I haven't done a lot of winter camping, but one of the things that holds me back from a downmat is the possibility of a leak. If it leaks you're on the ground. If you need to bring a CCF as a backup for safety, that's just increasing your weight. And you'll need at least a a sit pad sized CCF to sit on, and preferably one for under your feet, so why not use the same one as part of your sleep system and top it off with a comfortable NeoAir?
That's why I'm intrigued by the Ridgrest Solar discussed in this thread.
If I can get close to the same 34% weight reduction I did trimming my standard Ridgerest, I could get the Solar down to 12-13oz, combined with my small NeoAir for a weight of 22oz with an R-Value of 6 under my torso and hips, and an acceptable 3.5 plus whatever my pack adds under my feet.Oct 14, 2010 at 4:25 pm #1654657
Right, the advantage here, is the much higher claimed R-value than typical CCF pads for the thickness/weight. I'm not sure, either, how they managed to achieve it, which is why I'm asking about this combination. To be fair, they don't call it CCF but rather closed cell insulation, but I would think those are the one-in-the-same?
James, can you post the dimensions/shape that you cut your ridgerest down to? That was another option I looked at. How comfortable is the ridgerest to sleep on, compared to the NeoAir? (assuming you put the ridgerest on the top)Oct 14, 2010 at 4:41 pm #1654668
With a DownMat 7 Pump Short, you get an R-value of 5.9 and a weight of 23 oz. (length=47" though) You'd lose the CCF "backup" in case of an unpatchable hole, but the DownMat material is more durable than the NeoAir. I'd just have a sit pad and pack under my feet.
But, for winter, I have the full-size DownMat 7 at 32 oz.Oct 14, 2010 at 4:52 pm #1654674
I think we would be giving the manufacturer the benefit of the doubt if we assume they goofed on the r-value. Given that the Ridgerest Solar (twice as thick)is R3.5, I doubt that POE has it right here. They'd have to have something pretty slick to get R3 with 3/8" foamOct 14, 2010 at 5:22 pm #1654685
Here's a picture of my trimmed Ridgerest:
It's 70" long, and I just cut it to fit my body while lying down for the rest of it.
The Ridgerest isn't nearly as comfortable as the NeoAir, but I'm getting better as sleeping on it. I've never used it in combination with the NeoAir, so I can't speak to that. When I use the NeoAir, I use a 1/8" foam underneath it, mainly as protection.Oct 14, 2010 at 8:19 pm #1654745
@jacobdLocale: North Bay
3/8" R3? Hmmm… if it proves to be true that would be very interesting indeed.
I have 2 Kookabay DAM's coming soon, 3.5" thick R9 at 26oz (without pump) according to Bender's specs. I've been very happy with the synmat he made me which is R4 19oz… but if you already have a Neoair then you have nothing to lose except maybe a good nights sleep if that 3/8 R3 doesn't hold up ;)
Jacob.Oct 14, 2010 at 10:57 pm #1654774
@pillowthreadLocale: like, in my head???
I've used a POE sl-basic in all seasons for about a year now, and the only difference I can tell vs. a basic blue wallyworld foamie is that the POE foam seems denser, i.e. smaller air bubbles within the matrix. Also, it does not have the "sticky" tactile feel of a GG thinlight pad.Oct 15, 2010 at 7:56 am #1654821
not to be snarky at all, but you might try the search function for something like "Neoair winter;" much discussion in the pastOct 15, 2010 at 8:29 am #1654832
I've read many other winter NeoAir discussions. However, I've found no discussion about using this particular pad and given the astonishingly high R-value (claimed) for the weight, I figured it relevant enough to start a new discussion.
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