First time Winter BP’er. HALP!

you dont need sleeves IMO assuming you have an actual down/syn jacket puffay

if you sleep with the vest … just take it off and layer it on top of you in the bag (or on the bag) like a blanket … wrap yr arms around yr chest for added heat … put yr puffay on top of the bag

i find it warmer to use the clothing like a blanket than to wear it …

Snow camping is the best! I've only been out twice, so take my advice for what it's worth.

You can get the GoLite Ultra into the teens with additional down clothing and the right mat setup. Look for an R5 insulation value on the mats. I use a 1/2" CCF Ridgerest and a Full length NeoAir.

Definitely need a hat and booties. I use sleeves.

Condensation on the tarp walls has not been an issue, it just freezes. I have had annoying condensation on my quilt from my breath.

As they always say – try it out first, in the backyard or car camping.

Many use single-wall shelters in the winter, but they're generally pole-supported pyramid/hex designs. Those designs are good for shedding snow and wind, and can be pitched tight to the ground to seal out wind and blowing snow. It's often necessary to build up a bit of a snow berm on the inside perimeter to seal out blowing snow. Single wall is lighter, and since they're generally floorless, you can dig into the snow for even more headroom.

Double wall shelters seal out blowing snow and wind even better, and they often retain some warmth. Condensation isn't usually a big issue with either single or double wall because it's frozen to the tent wall.

With either design, be sure to get one which is rated for four seasons so that it will stand up to (or shed) heavy snow.

Having said all of that, I just purchased a four season shelter this year. I previously slept under tarps or in a pup tent, lucking out that there was no snowfall. :)

I like the Exped Downmat 7 for warmth and comfort. Having plenty of insulation under you is very important in extending your quilt's range. Seriously consider either getting a bivy or a full bag for those temps. I don't like to use a quilt below 30-40 F due to drafts, but you might be ok wearing down clothing.

Thanks for the replies thus far.

As far as the tent, the Trailstar is a pole supported pyramid tarp, shelter… thing. I assumed I would have to build some small snow banks to block the wind. I guess I have always heard that double walled tents were better for winter. I just did not know why. I assumed it could help create a microclimate inside the inner, but most inners are mesh anyway (maybe the 4 season ones are not). So long as you are inside your bag, extra space inside the tent/tarp shouldn't negatively effect you, right?

The comments about condensation were because that was the only thing I could think of for the single wall verse double wall debate. However, if there are other advantages feel free to share (although, I already bought my TrailStar so, it wont be of much help!).

I actually have a Exped Downmat 9 (R-value of 8). Heavy, but worth it in my opinion. I guess that should do.

I'm thinking of trying to hit up a resale shop for a puffy down jacket. Cut the sleevs off and DIY a pair of booties. This would free up some money to go after some sleeves (wait, didn't I just cut those up) or perhaps a new jacket. If I did decide on a new jacket, is something like the MB Down Inner enough for colder temps? or would I need something a bit beefier?

Thanks again!

It wouldn't surprise me if you're warm enough in the Ultra 20 without any down clothing while using the Downmat 9!

Extra space in the shelter shouldn't be a problem, but make sure no part of you or your quilt touches the shelter when staked all the way to the ground. The condensation might become a problem then. Double wall, 4 season tent inners are usually solid with some mesh vents.

I think I'd skip the sleeves and booties and start with a down jacket (or a few wool sweaters?), expedition-weight baselayer pants, and inexpensive but warm insulated hat and gloves or mittens. I use an insulated knit beanie I got for $5 new.

Edit: A few more thoughts: Practice pitching your shelter in deep snow. Stomp out an area for it, wait 30-60 min, and pitch. Study and practice how to anchor your tent in deep snow when it's not practical to drive stakes into the ground.

1) Start with mat(s). This will make a huge difference. I use a Ridgerest deluze and a Prolite 3 with my UL-20.
2) If it is much below freezing you won't have dripping. Condensation will freeze in/on your quilt.
3) A warm hat is critical.
4) Bivies and even sleeping bag liners will extend you quilt. A bivy will also keep the drafts out.

Sean,

To be thermo-neutral while doing extended camp chores in the mid-teens, the average male needs ~4.25 total clo of camp chore clothing. The original Golite Ultra was rated as a 20F quilt but I tested it as a 30F LLimit rated quilt. The new Golite Ultralite versions are correctly rated. Your Exped Downmat 9, Golite Ultra 20 and 4.25 total clo of camp chore clothing will extend your sleeping system's LLimit rating to ~ -12.5F.

Although you said, “I hope to be able to layer some long johns, down pants, down booties, down vest to extend its range into the teens (Midwest winters)” it will be adequate for sleeping but not doing extended camp chores while thermo-neutral.

Winter weight long underwear plus balaclava (~.6 clo), MB UL Down Inner Pants (~.8 clo), FF Down Booties (~.12 clo), and a Montbell Ex Light vest (~.58 clo) provides a total clo value of 2.1. You need to supplement your system with a parka or jacket/hat that has an Iclo of ~ 5 Iclo or 2.4 total clo. A jacket’s Iclo is multiplied by the % of the total body surface area covered to arrive at its total clo value. The EMS Men's Glacier Down Parka ($90 & 22.6 oz) is the least costly parka that provides you approximately the amount of supplemental insulation required for your infrequent winter forays. If you want the lightest weight jacket that provides the required amount of warmth then add the Feathered Friends Helios plus a warm hat ($239 & 15 oz).

Rather than jumping into winter camping with no experience I recommend doing trips throughout the Fall. That way you can learn what works as the temps are dropping throughout the season.

Sound advice.

Richard,

Thanks for the detailed information!

I guess I should have been a bit more specific. This is my current clothing that I have for 3 season use:

150g Merino SS Shirt
200g Merino LS Shirt
320g Merino LS Jacket (Hoodless)
Patagonia R1 Hoodie
150g Merino Full Length Long Johns
Montbell EX Light Vest
Windshirt
Merino Buff
Lightweight Merino Beanie

The 320g jacket is mostly for everyday wear, and I do not take it on the trail. However, I would consider it… but it is pretty darn heavy.

I really do not own any heavily insulated gloves or hats. Something I should look into. The above list, I feel, illustrates my earlier concerns; 1) No sleeves, 2) not enough leg warmth, 3) Enough upper body warmth with light vest?

To your point about camp chores: This was something I had overlooked. I was simply wondering if I could adequately extend the temperature rating of my bag for winter use. You bring up some good concerns about down time/camp time.

Tim,

i hear ya. However, I don't think there is anything wrong with jumping into cold water… so long as you aren't jumping into the deep end!

I won't be taking week long trips or bagging any peaks (think, midwest!). I will doing some short overnights, easily within walking distance of civilization and my car.

I would love to be able to take a bunch of small trips throughout the Fall to gauge my gear! However, working full time and going to school full time leaves very little time (aside from backyard testing). I probably have one, maybe two, trips left in 2010. This is due to time constraints and not desire.

you need a puffay for those temps if you dont already have one