Beginner advice – Socal mtns in winter and Whitney

I'll support the remarks about taking courses, climbing with experienced people, and taking the time to learn things well before you get very serious about winter mountaineering.

In the right conditions you can sometimes travel steep terrain in light shoes and crampons, sometimes it's faster and easier than boots and sometimes it's slower and more dangerous. You probably shouldn't try until you've climbed enough to be able to figure out when it would work and when it wouldn't, and you won't get that experience without owning at least one pair of boots.

When cramponing in certain conditions you want a lot of support. Standing in two-inch deep steps kicked into a 50-degree slope takes noticeably less energy, concentration, and calf strength in stiffer footwear. If you have a lot of it to do you will wish for something rigid.

Crampons come in a lot of variety these days. Avoid the ends of the spectrum, the super-fancy steep ice and mixed crampons and the super light and flexible crampons, until experience leads you to want specifically that. The steel 12-point crampons discussed, along with the beefier 10-point models (Petzle Irvis, BD Contact, Grivel G-10), will serve all of the needs of 90% of mountaineers.

By the time you have enough experience to use the broad variety of equipment and techniques that are available with safety you will probably own a truck-load of gear anyway, so don't sweat to much about getting it right the first time. Actually, I'd say whatever pair of steel crampons you can find used for around $50 will probably do just fine for your first pair, as long as they will fit on whatever boots you get.

> Maybe followed by a year or so of climbing with someone who actually knows what
> they are doing? Mountaineering is an unforgiving sport where first mistakes
> are last mistakes, and beginners don't get mulligans.

Can't argue with that advice: some of the wisest here. Very softly-softly with winter stuff.

Cheers

Of COURSE you need double boots. The "double" really means boots with an insulating liner. Since these will most likely be overnight trips you're taking the liners can be removed and placed inside the sleeping bag foot so you'll have warm boots in the morning.

***This is not just a convienance but necessary to keep from having frostbitten toes or at the least a d@mn uncomfortably painful morning as you make breakfast and strike camp in frozen boots.

And use VBL socks to keep the insulating liner absolutely dry and thus warmer. Wear a clean pair of thin synthetic sock liners each day. The tiny bit of extra weight will pay for itself many times over.

Yeah, some climber may have risked it and used running shoes and crampons (very strange) but winter is NO time to take equipment risks that will truly risk your life and limb(s).

pick the wrong one and be prepared to suffer.

a number of folks have recommend figuring out your socks first and then the boots. some may have luck with that, but it hasn't been my experience. when trying on new boots i come equipped with multiple pairs of socks (and insoles) to see what combination works best. i've climbed in a variety of different plastic boots and provided they are big enough i can adjust the fit by my sock/insole combination. the key is the boot can be a little big, but not too small. too small and you will be in for a world of hurt. your feet will ache, be cold and you'll loose all your toenails on the walk down. a good boot fitter can tweak the boots to get a better fit. that's if you can find a good boot fitter. invernos are the ford taurus of climbing boots. you see them everywhere because they are in the rental fleets and are relatively cheap. i personally hate them, but that's me. lightly used koflach degre boots can be found on ebay for very little money and are a solid boots for pretty much anything but the most technical climbing you'd do in the lower 48. super comfy and forgiving and they walk relatively well for plastics. throw on a pair of overboots or swap out the liners and you'd be set for denali. the double's i own are the original italian vasque ice 9000's. they are a hybrid that are super warm, walk great and are relatively comfortable. worn with a super gaiter they can pretty much go anywhere with few exceptions.

as nice and warm as 9000's are, they stay at home if i can wear my scarpa mont blanc’s, an insulated b3 rated full leather boot comparable to the kayland m 11+ or the la sportiva nepal evo. none of these should be confused with hiking boots, although i think for a mountaineering boot the mont blanc's hike pretty well. a full leather boot is much harder to get to fit right than a double and really needs to be broken in before you head off to the mountains. you seldom hear of folks getting blisters (maybe shin bang) in plastics they've never had on before, but in full leathers all the time. a well insulated, properly fitting full leather boot will do a great job of keeping your feet warm down too some pretty low temperatures. where they get faulted is the inability to remove the liner to dry them over night. clearly to some this is a big deal and to many others, not so much. i put it into the category of valid concern that can be managed around. others will disagree. am i wearing them on rainier in full winter. no. am i wearing them on rainier in april/may/june. hopefully. on the other hand i climb with guy who has climbed all over the world and he would wear his degre's on rainier in the summer. It’s all about what you are comfortable with. rmi guides is all about the safety and comfort of their clients and they are ok with leather boots on rainier starting with their trips in mid-may. for full disclosure they do point out that you feet might be cold on summit day. there are plenty of less insulated boots than what i listed that are sufficiently stiff (but less stiff than the 3b) that will take crampons and do fine on pretty-much any mountain in the lower 48 depending on what you consider spring.

my choice of crampons are g12 newmatic's. they are simple to use, fit all my boot and gaiter combinations, are suitable for anything i'm gonna climb and are bullet-proof. i take care of them and they take care of me. don't get them without the antiball plate.

as somebody new to the sport and you are sure you are going to truly be in conditions worthy, a double-boot is a good insurance policy. they are more forgiving than a leather boot for fit and break-in, warmer and you can cuddle at night with the liners if you choose.

Folks, let us read the original request.

Baldy and San G are not big gnar mountains. The Mountaineers Route in May is not a big technical route. Of course, you can certainly kill yourself on either.

For those conditions plastic boots would be serious overkill. Leather boots are in order. The Nepal with step in twelve points would be a bomber solution for the steeper and harder conditions you might find on those mountains and those routes. Strap on 12s or 10s would work fine, and with flexible center bars allow you to wear the spikes with trail shoes for other hikes (or if you decide to be especially rad/stupid). The Sportiva Trango line would sacrifice a bit or rigidity, but would be much lighter and more fun to hike in, and be burly enough to kick steps in spring conditions.

Save the plastics for doing Goddard in January.

i agree on the boots for baldy etc, can be leather and don't need to be nepal's, mont blanc's or m11 +, but his addition of a "spring ascent of whitney" leaves things open a bit. early spring can easily see temps in the 5°F to -10°F range. that plastic range for many.

> Of COURSE you need double boots. The "double" really means boots with an insulating liner.
I'll be a shade contentious here. I can't see why that merits 'of course'. After all, decent WP (GTX will do) joggers with two pairs of thick socks will keep your feet just as warm, and the socks can be dried just as easily as any old-fashioned liners. Been there, done that.

> some climber may have risked it and used running shoes and crampons (very strange)
Mont Blanc in Europe has been climbed that way. No problems.

> winter is NO time to take equipment risks that will truly risk your life and limb(s).
Actually, winter is no time for the inexperienced to take risks. What experience you have will guide what gear you use. Me, I am a bit wary of telling someone I don't know what gear he should use.

Cheers

"Me, I am a bit wary of telling someone I don't know what gear he should use."

if we aren't hear to share our exepreinces and suggestons and to learn from others, why are we here?

"if we aren't hear to share our exepreinces and suggestons and to learn from others, why are we here?"

I'd say "of COURSE you need double boots" goes a bit beyond suggesting, especially to a novice you don't know.

+1 to Roger's line of reasoning.

It appears the OP will encounter the following:

1.Higher altitudes (above 9,000 ft.)

2.Winter conditions (snow, maybe wet snow, and cold possibly well below 0 F.)

3.Possibility of overnighting

If I were on the area search and rescue team and was asked to recommend footwear I'd say "double boots" meaning any winter boots that have a removable insulating liner, including feltpacs. This does not necessarily mean only plastic mountaineering boots. This would be one way to help preclude a rescue in a very sudden worsening of the weather.

My original answer stands as advising the OP to err on the side of caution.

It gets to -30C here in town consistently in winter here, I've been on multi day climbs with Trango Extremes and the temps can be well below minus 40 altitude up here. I've never worn double boots I find them to be over kill unless your at high altitude or climbing in remote ranges. foot management is key. Changing socks when they get wet, drying them out when possible, VBL socks to manage sweating and layers. We can recommend all the boots we want but if they don't fit you'll hate your life while there on your feet, after all your the one wearing them.

And yes I do understand I'm much more acclimatized to cold weather than people from the southern US.