Backcountry footwear for the other three seasons

Kendall, I use the NRS Hydroskin socks. As I mention in the original article, 3mm neoprene (which the Boundary socks are made of) is much too warm for anything approaching normal hiking.

As for winter stream crossings, it has to get pretty darn cold before the wool liner and Hydroskin setup fails me. You have to keep moving to generate heat, and some might find this too cold or temporarily too miserable.

You can find open water, and especially overflow (ice sinks in a stream causing water to flow on top of it), at very cold temperatures, such that getting your feet wet might be dangerous. Alaska Ultrasport racers (the human powered iditarod) have used Wiggy's waders for years (http://wiggys.com/category.cfm?category=3) which are very similar to what Ike has been talking about. On the other hand Luc Mehl, three time winner of the Alaska Mountain Ski Classic, told me he and his partners just use plastic ski boots with thermo liners and get wet. Dump the water out and keep moving and your feet will be fine, apparently, even below zero. Thermo liners are heat molded closed-cell foam so they absorb no water.

I own Neos Trekkers, and they work great for sauntering through slush to the coffee shop or shoveling the driveway. Certainly waterproof. Not breathable at all, so you'd need to wear a vapor barrier liner to keep your insulating socks and shoes from getting soaked by sweat. Most seriously, in my view, are the soles, which have poor traction and are too floppy for serious hiking.

I made my own knee-high waders. In Denali National Park, Alaska, backcountry hikers are specifically warned not to try to ford any streams or rivers barefooted. First, I found a clear plastic bag. It was packaging for some long skinny object, so it was cut into two pieces that fit my legs. I sealed over the bottom with waterproof tape and then applied pieces of Reflectix as an inner-sole and also as an outer-sole. Then I fasten them onto my legs using rubber bands which also serve to wrap them up for transport. None of it will leak unless punctured by a very sharp rock. Very light. 44 grams.

–B.G.–

2 waterproof stuff sacks over sandles … you can use plastic bags if they are strong enough

neoprene is a b-tch to dry when cold .. as anyone who has been surfing in tofino can attest to

lol

@Roger

could you describe the process you use to cross various streams. The problem as i see it is that the above setups are fine for ankle high areas, etc, but what about knee high? What do you do in this situation.

I dont really like drying my socks in my sleeping bag with me at night if i can avoid it, that moisture tends to spread around to other things as well. Not to mention them freezing if your not constantly keeping them warm.

@David
Im confused about those wiggys light weight waders. They say they weigh under 1LB but then if you click the image they say they weigh 8.9oz. Do you have any information in this regard?

=====================

Some various waders:

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/2248,1341P_Frogg-Toggs-Hellbender-Stockingfoot-Waders-Waterproof-For-Men.html

-weight could be cut down alot on this, as i would cut them off a little below the crotch and ditch everything above it. 15oz uncut, after cut, my guess 7-9oz per pair.

homemade waders:
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1071274662035849719LhYoWw

Other than those options, your stuck with the ones David listed earlier, which appear fine.

Hi Ike

> could you describe the process you use to cross various streams. The problem as
> i see it is that the above setups are fine for ankle high areas, etc, but what
> about knee high?

Three season – depends a bit on where we are and where we are going.
* If there is one sandy steam crossing and lots of distance afterwards, we take our gaiters, shoes, socks and trousers off and cross. Then we dress.
* If the bottom is rocky we usually put just our shoes back on to protect our toes. Wet UL joggers dry very quickly.
* If there are several creek crossings (eg walking down the Coxs River) then we just keep walking without stopping. Our trousers, socks and (NON-GTX!) shoes dry quickly enough.
* If it's very deep, we strip, repack packs with garbage bag liner, and swim. Etc.

. One of many crossings on the Coxs River.

Winter – again, depends. I'll give the worst case: you can fill in the rest from the above.
* Snow season, up to knee deep. Take GTX gaiters (very good in the snow), shoes, socks and trousers off. Put clothing safely under pack lid, tie shoes to top of pack. Tuck gaiters under lid straps (important). Hold hands with each other for stability and cross as fast as possible. Putting shoes back on is optional, but we try not to.
On the far bank we grab for the gaiters and throw them down onto the snow and stand on them. This bit is crucial: get out of the water and off the snow, fast. It makes a huge difference. Usually we aim for a pre-planned landing spot where we can sit down.
Then we drop packs, sit on one GTX gaiter with feet on the other, access clothing and dry legs and feet with socks. Put socks back on, put trousers back on, put shoes back on, put gaiters back on. Start walking! We warm up very quickly.

. Actually, a snow bridge had given away and I sort of
. slid in to my knees. But no problems. In this case
. I was standing on 'dry' warm snow grass.

Sounds a bit desperate in winter, but in practice it is OK. What we do not normally do in winter is to go so deep we get our underwear wet. Not because of some silly ideas, but because of heat-loss risks.

> I don't really like drying my socks in my sleeping bag
I did not say we dried our shoes in our sleeping bags. We put them into large plastic bags to confine the water and just keep them warm. They go on wet in the morning – wet, but not frozen. If conditions are bad they will get wet again soon so why bother drying them? If conditions are good they will dry out soon anyhow.

Other comments about gaining experience in the mountains and the snow obviously apply. What we do is the result of many years of experiment, plus good knowledge of our own capabilities. The novice should start VERY carefully.

Cheers

Thanks for the informative post on yoru process roger. I cross with everything on in the summer, but on winter trips with frequent crossings, i find the idea of taking off everything below the belt, crossing, sitting on a gaiter and drying your feet, putting everything back on again, to be time consuming. I woudl rather just take the 7-9oz penalty and make my own waders. I cant imagine going through that ordeal many times over in a day. Then you have the issue of slicing a foot open and loosing a footing. The rocks in the creeks/streams i've been in are so slick its impossible to stand on them, the rest of them are so sharp they can slice easy. Not something i would want to hike with. As far as experience goes, I cant see how walking on sharp/slippery stream rocks in the winter could be good for me. Standing on those slipper rocks in a creek/stream is hard enough to do without falling down, add in crossing, maintaing balance with a pack on, etc. I've never encountered anything more slippery on the planet than the rocks in the streams i've crossed in the south east. They have a layer of slimey slippery stuff over them most of the time. Maybe the rocks in the creeks/streams are different in your neck of the woods.

David,
Thanks very much. I appreciate that. I was at work earlier, so I didn't have time to read your article. I'll go to it now.

Thanks again

Hi Ike

> on winter trips with frequent crossings, i find the idea of taking off everything
> below the belt, crossing, sitting on a gaiter and drying your feet, putting
> everything back on again, to be time consuming.
I agree, it takes a little bit of time. We don't have to do it very often, so that's OK, – FOR US.

For you it may be a different matter, so what suits you will be different. Certainly, slicing feet open is a big NO-NO.

We do get slippery rocks in canyons, but not in our alpine areas. So we do have different conditions. That often means different gear is needed.

Makes it seem like local experience is rather important! Formulating rules for novices may be … difficult. :-)

Cheers

Awesome pictures Roger! One usually doesn't get them in instances of such misery.

The other alternative to keeping wet socks thawed is to put them under your sleeping mat around the sides of your torso. IME enough heat leaks out to keep them from freezing. Between two mats (if you use two) is even better.

Ike, those Frogg Toggs waders are 1lb. 15oz. so, pretty substantial. Even cut down to just the legs they'd probably weigh closer to 1lb.

Personally, I like your idea of something homemade better. I'm not sure how the multi-use idea would work in practice (mainly waterproofing concerns), but just as a UL wader I think it's great.

Ordering cuben, im ordering cuben to make a tarp, underquilt, and filter bag. i will also make some waders.

I've never used waders before, are the little black things you slip your foot/shoe into neoprene booties on most waders?

David, great insight into a different world of cold! I think the 'killer app' there was your experience of racing and competition.

I am always grateful when information is provided from people who are racing… the focus that competition brings to gear and technique is way above that gained from just toodling around.

I'm wondering if waterproof/breathable socks (ie. SealSkinz, Rocky Gore-Tex socks) really do any breathing if your shoes are soaked? It seems like wet shoes would have very little capacity to absorb moisture from the foot.

I can understand wearing WP/B socks if you are hiking in them inside dry shoes as a preventative measure to keep your socks and feet dry, but if you use them as a reaction to wet shoes and then take them back off when your shoes are dry, then it might work just as well to use cheaper, not breathable socks?

For me personally, I can see the appeal of slapping on dry socks inside a waterproof sock to keep your feet dry and warmer while your wet shoes dry, but I don't think I'd wear the waterproof socks once my shoes are dry. Even breathable ones are going to give you clammy feet if you're using them for hours.

Dandy wrote…
For me personally, I can see the appeal of slapping on dry socks inside a waterproof sock to keep your feet dry and warmer while your wet shoes dry, but I don't think I'd wear the waterproof socks once my shoes are dry. Even breathable ones are going to give you clammy feet if you're using them for hours.

…did you notice the temps he is using this stuff at? …

I'm just asking a question to help me hike better….I realize the OP's needs may be a bit different than mine. Hopefully someone can provide some feedback on whether wp/b socks actually breath when inside a wet shoe.

Theoretically the vapor pressure within the socks would still drive out water vapor, although as effectively since the humidity differential is not as great as they would be in dry shoes.

Thanks. It would be neat to make some eVent socks as they supposedly still breathe okay where the humidity differential is not that great. From what I've read, the breath-ability of Gore-Tex goes way down when the outside humidity is high.

> whether wp/b socks actually breath when inside a wet shoe.
One should say 'It depends', but a simple answer which would be right 95% of the time is 'not really'. The wet shoe blocks the action.

Cheers

On a related issue, at three months and many trips in felt able to review my new favorite shoe, and did so at a fair length here:

http://bedrockandparadox.wordpress.com/2010/12/01/lasportiva-crossleather-review/

I also pushed my footwear system pretty far on this trip: http://bedrockandparadox.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/fear-and-trembling-in-praise-of-the-off-season/

It held up well.

David this was an excellent piece and a very good complement to the BPL article on winter foot systems. Also very timely for my wife and me as we tune our non-winter but cold and wet footwear systems.

Just wanted to ask – when you said you preferred the Crossleather because of the lack of mesh, did you mean the Crosslites have too much mesh and don't last long enough?

Also, did you try the La Sportiva Wildcats? What do you prefer about the Crossleathers the Crosslites, Wildcats, Raptor and Skylites? Is it the fact that they have too much mesh? I ask because I'd like to pick up an LS 3 season shoe and an LS winter wet slop shoe.

Generally I don't like mesh in cold weather because if your feet get wet in strong wind, they can get quite cold. But perhaps the sock system would fight this. I'm thinking the Crossleathers help protect you from heat loss from the wind/evaporation.

Edit – Just read your Crossleather review, so get the difference between the Crossleather and Crosslite. But did you try the other LS shoes above, or use any of them in warmer conditions?

EJ, I used a pair of Fireblades last year and liked them, I just prefer the more aggressive tread on the Crossleather/lite. The Skylite has a very low tread.

I've not worn them, but the Wildcat and Raptor seem like they have a more substantive midsole and more support, which is something I've moved away from in the last year and a half.

Thanks David, could you post photos of a) where you added the velcro attachment for the Dirty Girl Gaiters and how this works with the gaiter on your leg and b) the pattern you cut for your yoga mat insoles.

What thickness of yoga mat are you using and what type of material? They come in a wide range of materials. My wife and I might like to try a flatter insole.

Also, what did you use to fasten the velcro? Glue and/or stitching?

EJ,
I've been gradually cutting away at a pink yoga mat I bought at Walmart a few years ago. It's what I think of the standard thickness, about 3/8". I ended up not making insole for the Crossleathers, I was worried they'd crowd the toe. Instead I cut an arc out of the inside of each instep, say 4" long and 3/4" deep at the apex. It felt good on a snowshoe outing today.

The velcro patches go at the back of the heel, starting right at the top of the foam in the sole and going up from there. The adhesive on the stock Dirty Girl strips is quite good. Clean the shoe with water, then wipe with alcohol, cut the stock strips into 2 2" long strips, round the edges with scissors, stick and press. Finish by smearing a bit of shoe goo around the outside edges.

You can also just shoe goo a piece of velcro straight on. Shoe goo is the adhesive of choice here.

For spring, fall, and mild winter days I feel my Merill GTX Moab mid boots are good. Gaiters are necessary in snow but otherwise these are mid weight boots that are very adequate.

I would NOT go in snow without a GTX or eVent boot. The warmth of your feet can melt enough snow to wet out your boots if you have no GTX, creating a dangerous situation. As well, spring tends to be rainy and GTX really helps.

But for stream crossings in cold weather diver's neporene booties, while not waterproof, will keep you warm and give good footing and protection at a decent weight.