Newbie Questions on Hardshell and Softshell Jackets

Hey Mark, Hardshell refers to just a waterproof shell, with no insulation. For visual purposes, think of it as a waterproof windbreaker. You can find these around the 5oz-6oz range (north face triumph, marmot essence), all the way up to 20+oz (arcteryx alpha)

Softshells are made of neoprene or similar (think of wetsuit material) They are usually lined with fleece, or some other material. They are more breathable because they are only water resistant, not water proof like a hardshell (unless the softshell has a waterproof membrane inside)

Most people, myself included, use hardshells. Softshells are just too heavy, and don't offer any modularity in terms of insulation. WIth a hardshell, I can choose the level of insulation I want given the conditions (e.g. layering with a fleece underneath or a down sweater underneath) With a softshell, everything is fixed, and I get what I get. I usually use softshells for less strenuous winter activities (snowboarding) where I know it won't rain.

It looks like you already have a hardshell…you mentioned a rain jacket in your gear. Given your various amounts of insulation (e.g. your montbell jacket, vest, etc) I would get a better/light hardshell (if thats what your looking for), and use your arsenal of insulation underneath. You'll get more options for a greater variety of seasons that way

The softshell category is very broad- with some being fully waterproof and insulated, while others being slightly waterproof and very thin.

Although Patagonia, Buffalo, etc. used softshell ideas proir to Cloudveil, it seems to me that the use of Schoeller 4 way stretch fabrics is what really brought about the current understanding of a softshell.

In winter, at least in the NE, they are fantastic.
Scenario 1: baselayer (your choice), thin midlayer (100 weight fleece or same) and hardshell.
-In below freezing conditions, while wearing a pack and actually moving (hiking, climbing) this setup leaves me with a soaked back, frost build-up in the jacket, and generally wet. Even without the fleece, this occurs.

Scenario 2: baselayer and Schoeller jacket (add a fleece if below 10 degrees).
Same activity- but the breathability of the Schoeller means no frost buildup and much, much less moisture rentention. I stay drier, and the fabric is quite and does not impede mobility. The only concern is that the fabric is about 75% windproof, not ideal for above treeline (my system overcomes this… but it is something to note).

That said, the variety of softshell fabrics is staggering- and some really are just insulated hardshells (fully waterpoof, poor breathability). Still, something like a non-membrane stretch woven is wonderful in winter… I have not used my hardshell jackets in winter for years (well, once at a very, very cold belay, but not while moving).
For summer, many softshells are too heavy for backpacking. However, I'd take the Rab Alpine Pullover or marmot Driclime jacket for climbing over a hardshell or ultralight windshirt.

I find a softshell jacket to work very well under some conditions — for me, it's day use in cold weather when I don't expect precipitation. The breathability, flexibility, and durability are nice features.

For overnight backpacking, unless it is *very* cold, a softshell is too warm for me to hike in, but not warm enough for camp. It doesn't compress very well, and it's heavy for its warmth. I prefer a base layer/wind shirt/down jacket/hard shell combo, with each piece chosen for the specific conditions (i.e., heavier down jacket in deep winter.)

OTOH, my wife wears her softshell (a Marmot Sharp Point) all the time on backpacking trips from fall through spring. In her kit, it takes the place of a light wind shirt — she almost always has it on, over a base layer or a microfleece zip tee. She still brings a down jacket for camp, since the soft shell is not warm enough when sitting.

For winter day hikes when it is below freezing or no chance of wet precipitation, I wear a softshell. Particularly with snowshoes or Xcountry skis, For overnight backpacking, I never take a softshell, just wool baselayer and wind jacket along with rain gear, usually a poncho.

Lets see :)

Wind Shirt == single thin layer of tightly woven polyester or nylon. Stops wind, light showers. Very practical and light.

Soft Shell (purist) == sort of as above but a bit stretchy and thicker overall fabric (sometimes two layers woven together) so some warmth & stuff.

Soft Shell (practical) == Various things which are all much more comfortable (cf sweat) to wear than hard shells but not waterproof. Windshirts with fleeces sewn/glued to the inside for instance. Considerable variety in net warmth & degree of wind resistance.

Both of these categories a lot heavier than windshirts so basically something you use when planning to wear all the time.

Soft Shell (annoying marketing term) == Things with a waterproof membrane in, and a little stretch. Very often not taped at the seams. Not obviously useful for very much (as not hugely more comfortable to wear than a hard shell and leak!) and often more expensive than 'real' soft shells.

No doubt have their uses but….

My experience is clearly different than yours. At least in cooler/cold conditions, I find that soft shells (pick your definition here) give adequate warmth with a much higher level of breathability than hardshells. Ideal for anytime it's below freezing.

Unfortunately, saying "softshell" is a bit like saying "car"; it's a huge category that has a wide range of examples in it, whose functionality differs from the others. I tend to stay away from softshells that have much fleece or insulation bonded to them, but supposedly they're good for cold and rainy conditions, which I don't experience here.

I'm currently using a combination hardshell/softshell parka from First Ascent/Eddie Bauer that uses hardshell material in the shoulders, hood, and arms, but softshell material in the main body. Seems to be a good compromise, with a little extra protection for a little less breathability.

Seem to have caused some confusion! Experience quite similar I suspect.

It was purely the pure membrane 'soft shells' which I meant to question the general utility of. Simply because they don't deliver the massive breathability you're logically after in this sort of thing.

The other styles of soft shell are all undoubtedly very useful :)

And yes hybrid membrane/no membrane stuff with extra protection on the shoulders/hood where DWRs tend to fail makes sense.

As it happens I rather love my wind shirts for most of the year and Paramo style bits for winter (given this is the UK that means plenty of rain too!) and rather like my stretch woven bits as luxury wind shirts.

Okay, I get your point now.

Yes, we agree that softshells based on membranes inside the garment are close to hardshells in performance. Woven softshells that use water-repellent fabric work much better, at least in my experience.

My hiking buddy spent the weekend living in his Paramo top, while I just threw on a windshirt when it got cold (no rain, fortunately). He's very happy with the Paramo and Buffalo gear he's picked up.

I've long wondered just what is the definition of "softshell." At least I now know more than when I started reading this thread. "Softshell" appears to be a very elastic (stretchable?) definition that covers a multitude of softer fabrics that are being combined with something else to make them (supposedly) water- and wind-proof.

I still haven't read anything that makes me want to own one, but YMMV!

The reason to own one and to wear softshells is that they are quite likely to be the most comfortable and best performing option for most conditions. The key is that it makes little sense to carry softshell garments, which limit their usefulness for backpacking considerably. So if you need to wear pants and jacket for the entire trip (ie winter), they can work really well. Softshell pants work great; at this point I don't even carry or use hardshell pants.

Jackets and tops are more complicated. As noted, there is now tremendous variation in what is marketed as a "softshell" and some materials perform better then others. The light stretch woven materials are really comfortable, but much less protective. But don't rule out the membrane softshells either (wb400 or powershield). At least in the winter conditions we get here, frigid cold, wind, snow, they can block the wind, repel the snow, and be far more breathable then a hardshell. I don't buy the testing that suggests otherwise, either, I think there is something in the methodology for those tests that doesn't measure softshells like wb400 correctly.

I can't really see anyone who has snowshoed a peak in heavy snow in a hardshell (sweating, wet and overheating on the way up, then wet and cold on the way down) could prefer that to doing the same climb in a powershield/wb400 jacket (dry, warm and happy). Hardshells have gotten better, so these differences are less pronounced then in the past.

But softshells are not BPL, and are not really that appropriate for backpacking (maybe in the winter, but I haven't done that).

softshells really work when there's a combination of 3 factors
– fairly high output activity that would overwhelm a hardshell
– need for quick drying
– high durability

the key to softshells is that while they arent the lightest, most breathable out there … nothing else has the combination of durability, breathability, quick drying ability, wind resistance and insulation value in combination

windshirts … not the most durable
fleece … less water and wind resistant
sythetic insulated … dont dry as quick, shells arent as durable
down insulated … same but worse
hard shell … waterproof, but the breathbility is bad during high output activities

event does approach softshells though i dont think its quite there yet … note how Westcomb is producing hybrid softshell/event products …

if im going climbing, bushwhacking, winter activities, etc … or anything else where durability and quick drying are a matter of concern … i take a softshell

note though that i only use schoeller and polartec softshells