S3P System (College Project)

Minor comment: when you said crash pad, i was thinking of bouldering and you had me all confused. maybe just say sleeping mat instead?

Understandable, I'll take note of that one.

Thanks for your input!

Anyone else?

Clever work.

What is the reason for having the sleeping pad as part of this system? I don't understand the benefit of having the sleeping pad sewn to this footprint/hammock/pack cover over the sleeping pad being it's own seperate item. If it was seperate then users could position it where they like in their tent, or use it separately as a seat etc? Sewing the pad to the rest of this item just seems to limit the function of the sleeping pad for no real purpose unless I'm missing something. Maybe it's nice to have it affixed in place for hammock use, but it would still be nice if it was detachable. For example, if it attached with snaps or velcro then you could remove it and use it separately.

Good questions, from the testing that I did (multiple camping trips) the benefits were….

hammocking… the fixed pad didn't move around in the hammock…added insulation, the pad provides great insulation (is got down to 40 degrees during the night I spent in it and it was really windy (camping on an island)….and also added comfort, hands down the most comfortable sleep I've experienced when camping/backpacking

Pack cover…it adds protection for your bag, thus making it so you can now use a much smaller bag made from lighter materials rather than the heavy bags that the manufacturers tends to make

and the real benefit, now the sleeping pad lives on the outside of your bag….reducing the volume on the inside of your bag being taken up by the item, again allowing you to either reduce the size of your pack or carry additional items for if its cold/rainy or you'd like more food

another main reason for the building in the item is for reducing the environmental impact the item has on the front end of the process. We all want the trails to be there for our next trips and for future generations, but we also need to be more conscious of the impact from distributing products. By building in the sleeping pad, there is one less package that is needed and one less item to be shipped seperately.

Hope this helps you understand a little more of my thinking but feel free to argue against any of all of this.

I really appreciate all of this everyone!

I looked at your system yesterday. You've put a bunch of work into it, so congratulations.
A fixed pad in a hammock is nice. I'm not sure if they do that already, but years ago when I tried to hammock, the pad was tough to position.

I read through the presentation and wondered why you can't also be used as a tarp for weather protection? Then, why not throw a hood on it and use it as a poncho? Just throwing out some ideas….oh yeah, how much does it weigh?

Thanks Steven, great to hear some feedback!

Unfortunately I don't have a scale handy to weigh it, but earlier models were just above the 2 pound mark. The foam was a great contributor to the weight which I am still experimenting with to find the right combination.

So in the presentation I outlined the 4 main intended uses of the product. But something that I will learn (as this is still in constant development) is the unintended uses that people will try using the S3P for along the trail.

For example, if a bear bag is essential then you can string up the four corners, load in your food and hoist up into a tree.

Using the ropes as a clothes line if thats needed.

As for the poncho idea and weather protection, both are great ideas! I have looked at the use of trekking poles or tent poles as a wind barrier or a form of minimal shelter.

The next step for this project is for me to make a bunch of S3P's and put them in the hands of some people that want to put some serious mileage on them and provide me with some more feedback. I've done some field testing myself, but it will be a huge benefit to hear others opinions of the S3P.

Definitely a cool project! If you made the sleeping pad detachable, and then used velcro for the attachment points, you'd gain two advantages: 1. taking out the sleeping pad for when using it as a poncho or whatever and 2. sleeping pads could then be modular, so that users could have a lightweight summer pad or a thicker "shoulder season" pad (for us northerners).

A few great points, thanks for your time and input!

One thing I guess I have failed to do is show off the sleeping pad being removable from the unit. One end is actually open allowing it to be removed.

A few kids during class mentioned the modular sleeping pad idea also, (he's 6'6'') arguing more along the lines of my 3/4 pad not suiting his needs which is why I left the pouch open so the pad can be removed. As for the different thickness or material sleeping pads that's a great point, because climates are different.

The velcro on the other hand wasn't so hot when I testing it, but that also could have been the way I tested it. I used more of a strap to hold the pad in place rather than a pouch which is what I elected to go with because it keeps the pad in place much better, also clothes could be put in the pouch to for either addition padding while sleeping or keeping warm. I personally keep extra clothes inside my sleeping bag to say warm in the event I want to add extra layers while sleeping rather than getting out of my bag into the cold air and losing all my heat.

Keep the feed back coming everyone, this stuff is great!!!

Looks like you put a ton of work into the project!

1. when I set up camp the first thing I do is set up camp/tent in case a sunny day turns to rain or for bug protection. How am I going to use the hammoch if it is under my tent?

2. When I am hiking I have most of my gear in waterproof stuffsacks to keep them dry from rain. If I am using your mat as a packcover one side is going to be soaking. I'm not going to want to bring it into my tent at night so the padding will have to go under the tent. This is less comfortable. I can not move around to find the most comfortable position.
2b. The mat, under the tent with my sleeping pad, is not universal, mat placement will vary and will be non-optimal.
2c. Do two people carry one each or does one person carry all the padding for two people. Seems harder to upsize/downsize for people vs T-rests.

3. What about dome tents, VE-25, MHW Trango, ect square does not work with design.

4. HEAVY. 2lb? that is a lot to take if you don't need it. For 1.5lb I have a thermarest, waterproof stuff-sacks and a tyvex groundsheet

5. A ground sheet sees a lot of wear and tear, to make it light you trade off durability, thats OK but I would not want my packcover to have a tone of holes in it. Which is what will happen is you use Silinylon as a groundsheet.

Right now it seems heavy and clunky, I'm not sure I see a product here, seems like you are trying to do too much, some of your aims may be contradictory.

Looks like you put a ton of work into the project!

1. when I set up camp the first thing I do is set up camp/tent in case a sunny day turns to rain or for bug protection. How am I going to use the hammoch if it is under my tent?

2. When I am hiking I have most of my gear in waterproof stuffsacks to keep them dry from rain. If I am using your mat as a packcover one side is going to be soaking. I'm not going to want to bring it into my tent at night so the padding will have to go under the tent. This is less comfortable. I can not move around to find the most comfortable position.
2b. The mat, under the tent with my sleeping pad, is not universal, mat placement will vary and will be non-optimal.
2c. Do two people carry one each or does one person carry all the padding for two people. Seems harder to upsize/downsize for people vs T-rests.

3. What about dome tents, VE-25, MHW Trango, ect square does not work with design.

4. HEAVY. 2lb? that is a lot to take if you don't need it. For 1.5lb I have a thermarest, waterproof stuff-sacks and a tyvex groundsheet

5. A ground sheet sees a lot of wear and tear, to make it light you trade off durability, thats OK but I would not want my packcover to have a tone of holes in it. Which is what will happen is you use Silinylon as a groundsheet.

Right now it seems heavy and clunky, I'm not sure I see a product here, seems like you are trying to do too much, some of your aims may be contradictory.

Take a look at Integral Designs 3-in-1 Tarp, might give you some ideas.
A sleeve is better then straps, make sure you can still use toro, 3/4 and full length pads with it, but might fill with water under a tent

People who use frameless or semi-frameless packs (a lot of us) need their sleeping pads inside the pack to provide support. The pad helps stiffen the pad (and provides the only stiffening in a frameless pack) to help transfer the weight of the pack to the hip belt. OOPS–the pad stiffens the pack! Sorry!

Not all of us can use CCF pads. I'm not a hammocker, but I know others who need or prefer 2.5" insulated air pads (POE, BA, NeoAir) for more comfort even in a hammock.

There is also the problem, as mentioned above, of a wet pad, which will certainly get the sleeping bag or quilt wet.

Pack covers do NOT keep packs dry. They help with the outside of the pack but do not keep rain from running down the back of the pack and of the person carrying it. They are also useless in case of immersion. Even the best of us have slipped and fallen during dicey stream fords. A pack liner or dry bags for critical gear do a far better job.

These caveats don't necessarily rule out your system, but hopefully will cause you to think about making it more flexible to meet these issues.

Robert, lot of great stuff. Hope these comments help. Thanks for your input!

1. If its under your tent, why would you need a hammock? I was invisioning the hammock feature/footprint being used in situations where you can't find a place big enough for your tent, or the terrain isn't suitable for a tent. But it can be used an a footprint with your tent for night its going to rain, or you don't feel like hammocking. If your carrying just a footprint and want a hammock you'd need an additional item (the hammock) taking up space, and adding weight.

2. The wet side (outside of pack cover) is also the bottom of the footprint, both side are exposed to the elements. The same way a traditional footprint or pack cover is. The padding is on the inside of the pack cover staying nice and dry. The sleeping pad is on the dry side of the footprint, but beneath the bottom of the tent, keeping the sleeping pad dry, unless water was to come between these layers, and if using a tradition footprint then your sleeping bag would still get wet.

2b. Yes the sleeping pad will go under the tent and in a fixed position. It may not be what the user wants for moving around, but a single person tent isn't exactly a queen bed with lots of room for moving around, we're talking at most 50 inches at its widest, even then most single person tents are around 40 inches.

2c. The unit was orignally designed with a single person in mind. A person that was on a long hike, for example the AT but decided to hike alone as most do. I have looked at 2 person units, and plan to develop one. But if you have two people, you'd need to hammocks (if that was the planned method of sleeping). Multiple sleeping pads don't fit in a single person tent (correct me if I'm wrong, please) I've tried putting two people in my single person tent and wasn't at all comfortable.

3. Correct, dome tents, and tents like the trango don't work well. But that is also because they are 2 plus peson tents. This is designed for a single person tent. A majority of single person tents are either rectangles or trapazoids.

4. Yes 2 lbs. is on the heavy side. The foam is what adds a majority of the weight. I have yet to source a foam which would be affordable on the level of mass production. When a proper source for foam is found weight will go down.

5. The pack cover may get punctured on the ground, for that a patch kit will need to be developed to work effectively for the pack cover mode as well as the hammock mode.

As for whether theres a product here, I have been told that by a few before, which is alright, the doubt helps me make this a better product, which is why I am excited and happy for all the feedback I receive. Thanks for your time!

1. I would buy it to have a hammock for no more weight then a groundsheet.
The hammoch would get dirty too, not sure if I'd want to lie in a dirty one.

2. You are still bringing a large ammount of soaking wet fabric into the tent, water will drain from it by pressure for lying in it and make your life miserable. Dealbreaker for me.
2b. Prefer to be able to move the sleeping pad in case I'm on a hill/not comfortable/lying on a rock, stump. Would work better w/o the pad.
2c. For just myself a bivy and tarp works wonders and is super light, better IMO then a 3season tent. Would not buy an expansion, heavy pad that made me (or assumed) I would use a single person tent.

3. Weight is killing you, would not consider it b/c of that alone. Foam pads are uncomfortable, if you have back issues many can not use them, built in foam is limmiting.

4. a patch kit is not the solution, puting it on the user to make repairs as part of the normal course of things is a sign of bad design IMO.

5. if the hammock is for when you can not camp, what about if its raining out, how are you going to protect from the elements?

I think Exped has a pack cover which also doubles as a cowl, nice in warm summer rain when GorTex is to clammy; ID has the Rescue Sled/Tarp/Bivy, look at them for ideas.
I'd say drop the foam padding and work the hammock idea, but it is weaker then all in. Seems to me like it would work in nice weather but just be WET in poor weather.
I cant get over your suggestion to just patch the thing, that alone turns me off. Why not build it in a heavier fabric, realize that it will not be light, and take it in a different direction?

Cheers

Mary, thanks for bring up the foam pad!

What isn't shown about this particular pad, is that its a combination of closed and open cell foams.

The closed cell foam pad is 1/2inch thick and is glued to the open cell foam which is 1 inch thick, making it a 1.5 inch thick pad. The closed cell foam elliminates the feelings of twigs, small pebbles or roots and the thicker open cell foam forms to your body (my prototypes used a memory foam) This combinatation of foams adds a little weight but also lots of additional comfort. As I continute to prototype, I'm sure I'll get to a combination that would be comfortable for all but also lightweight enough.

As for the hikers that opt to use a frameless pack, the pad can be removed from the pouch and could live on the inside of the pack, providing rigidity. As for the hikers that prefer inflatable sleeping pads, that could be integrated somehow, making the pouch universal to all existing sleeping pads and then allowing the pad to be removable when ever necessary.

Robert,

I think you might be confused by the last page in my presentation that illustrates the S3P being used in a "quick pitch" situation as a footprint/pad combo. This was shown to give my class (all non-hikers) a reference of how the footprint relates to the tents, because if I had shown it with a tent then the footprint would never have been scene, and they would have never actually understood the use/function of the footprint.

With that being said, the sleeping pad never actually enters the tent unless of course you are to remove it from the "pouch that it is in.

As for the bivy, I think that is where some gear is suitable for some and not for others. There are people who filter there water and then there are a few who don't. With a strong percentage of single person tents on the market it made for a good category to target.

The weight will continue to go down as more prototypes are made and testing is done, it will get down to a reasonable weight. I might have to start looking more at material selection to help with this. But I think it will be greatly affected by the foam I select.

Patch kit, I don't think it's bad design (things will inevitably break, its up to the user to be careful and use things properly), I think that is a quick and light solution for while your on the trail. But I'll have to look at the durability of the materials. It might be the least desirable option, testing will tell.

As for the hammocking while it's raining, I am looking at a different version of this that address that. For now, I don't have the answer your looking for, except more prototyping.

As for a different direction, it very well could go in a different one, after all this project originally started from me wanting to design a sleeping pad, which spiraled into the S3P.

Thanks for all your input, helping me to think alot about every aspect of it!!

A 2 inch thick foam pad would be too thin for me to sleep on and and also far too heavy. Open cell foam soaks up water, which would make the pad even heavier, as well as soggy. Please remember that not all backpackers are young like you; in fact, the majority I meet on the trail are in their 40's or older. As one gets older, joints get more sensitive to pressure. That's why a lot of us older folk use insulated air pads, most of which are 2.5" thick. I once was fine with a 2" thick pad, but that was years ago.

Looking at your combination in relation to my needs:

The 2" foam pad would be too thin for me and weighs a pound more than the 2.5" thick insulated air pad I currently use, which weighs 17 oz., which I can keep inside my pack and partially inflate to help support the pack.

My tent has a floor. I never use a tent footprint or ground sheet. It isn't necessary.

I do use a pack cover, only because I use my pack as a pillow at night and therefore want at least the front surface dry. My pack cover is made of cuben fiber and weighs 0.8 oz. I do not rely on the pack cover to keep my pack contents dry, but am willing to carry the extra 0.8 oz. so I don't have to carry a pillow, which would weigh more. My pack is made of lightweight materials (Dyneema and silnylon) and gets along fine without any extra protection.

Of the elements of your idea that I could possibly use, total weight of my current gear is 17.8 oz. I would certainly not want to have anything heavier!

I think that the weight of your combination alone would make people on this forum reject it.

Further edit: I'm not saying that you don't have an interesting idea! I think, however, that the Backpacking Light audience, consisting of folks who calculate weight by the gram (or "gram-weenies," as we're often called), is probably not your optimal market!

Mary,

I appreciate your input alot!

How much does all your gear weigh? Just to give me an idea of what you carry weight wise, because this wasn't exactly the crowd I was originally designing for.

And I do agree with you that the UL crowd won't be my audience, but in terms of feedback I think this group has lots of experience and knowledge that I'm looking to learn from in order to make this product better. This group is hyper critical of their gear which is exactly what I need during the development of this potential product. Thats why I don't mind any feedback that could be going against the S3P.

Thanks again for your time!

Anyone else have some thoughts? Concerns?

My base weight (everything but food, water, fuel) for summer in the OR or WA Cascades is 13.9 lbs. That's rather heavy by the standards of this forum, most of whose members have or aspire to a base weight of less than 10 lbs.

I see more and more backpackers, and also the mainline gear companies, trying to go more light weight.