Something new.

Hmmm…

Cheap, light, disposable.

Nothing new here.

Wow. Their prices are amazing. Thanks for the link!

The price is low, but the quality looks to be very “home-made.” I’d rather shuck out an extra $5 and get a real G6 from Gossamer Gear. That doesn’t look at all like a well-made pack to me.

Ben

Looks like someone took a G6, SuperSized it, and added water bottle pockets. It looks like its literally the halfway point between the G5 and the G6 to me.
Nothing revolutionary, but I bet it fits someones niche.

As a side note, I love how defensive people are to these packs. You dont see many 3000ci packs out there for SUL users and priced at $75. “Homemade looking”? Maybe. But how many people here have bought an alch stove that still said red bull, or pepsi, or fosters on the side? “Nothing new here?” Maybe not… but then again, dont see many 6oz packs out there selling for that price.

My point was that there is a 3.7 oz pack selling for $5 more, by a company with a proven reputation for not only quality but also customer service.

http://www.gossamergear.com sells the G6 cheaper than the BPL site after the member discount.

There is a good reason that more companies don’t make 3000+ ci SUL packs, IMHO – they’re hard to fill up and create a stable load without overloading the skimpy suspension. See the BPL review of the GG G5.

My “home-made looking” remark wasn’t quite the crack you might think. I’m a MYOG fanatic, and have made a couple of packs very similar to that one. That’s why I feel justified in saying what I did. Tons of guys making packs similar or superior to this one in their garages and bedrooms – this guy just wants to sell them.

Ben

So… what is your recommendation for a fledgling company to prove their quality and customer service? NOT try to sell things? Sell them cheaper? Seel them more expensive? What? Im genuinely curious here. How does a new company get off the ground? Do they NEED to have some “innovative” product first?

The G6 is *currently* on SALE. I dont think that is exactly the same thing as saying they sell the pack “for $5 more”. Its just on sale.

If “tons” of guys are making superior backpacks in their garages, great… but really, who cares? what does that have to do with the price of tea in china? If they are selling them, then I am sure they are doing well. If they are not selling them, then their superior design helps no one but their maker. If these guys dont want to share, more power to em. This guy does…

All things considered, I could care less what anyone thinks of this guy or his products. Im quite happy with my 2lbs framed backpack. No dog in this fight. I just find the dirision of his products, based off of website pictures, to be unwarranted.

I’ve been wanting a G6 pack (I like its smaller capacity and obviously its UL weight as well) — but also wishing it had side water bottle pockets. The Zpack might be just the thing for me!

On the other hand… I have two packs already (MS Ghost and GoLite Dawn). Do I really need a third pack? Help!

I agree that the bigger back is probably WAY to big for a silnylon pack with no suspension. But the smaller one looks like an ok size. It could be nice to have a little more room than the G6. The construction looks fine to me… hard to tell from the photos… even the big ones.

Personally… I think it’s exciting. It’s super cheap… it’s a nice size… it’s got side pockets (which the G6 could really use)… it’s got a belt… which is an add-on option to the G6 (more money)… it’s made from tougher material than the G6… and for packs in the 5oz range… there are only two other options now… the G6 and the Prophet 30. So I say… rock on! Nothing wrong with having choices!!!!! For the price… I’d buy one to try out! Seems like a great deal. The only glaring ommision is a haul loop. But you could just use the shouder straps to lift it.

And it is “new” in the sense that it is a new offering… a new choice for those who don’t want to make their own. At least I’ve never seen this pack before. And the original poster never said it was new in the sense of being revolutionary… he just said it was new.

J R,

I’m not sure that my comments qualify as “derision,” but you’re right that I’m not impressed.

The GG deal – the pack has been available at that price for months and months – I think it’s more or less a permanent price change.

In honesty, I do think that a company should have an innovative product. The only other viable alternative, to my mind – a less honest one – is to offer a reasonable quality copy of a larger company’s product for a lower price. That way you’re benefitting from their R&D costs, and can undercut them. I don’t see any innovation in this pack, so my only reason for buying it would be that it’s cheaper than the Gossamer Gear version. Too bad his low cost is achieved through an ethically questionable business plan (copy and slash).

My recommendation for a fledgling company would absolutely be: offer an innovative product – don’t just make cheap copies. There is doubtless someone out there who just wants a cheap 5-6 oz pack. They’ll get what they pay for, based on those pictures. Look at the shoulder strap attachment for a good example – it’s minimally reinforced, and I’d expect better finish in a $75 item that has maybe $15 of materials in it.

Anyways, more than I intended to say. I wish the guy well – hopefully he’s just doing this to finance his gear-making hobby. I’ve contemplated doing the same, but concluded that I wouldn’t be doing anyone any favors for the reasons listed above. I guess we’ll see what the market bears – 5 years ago he might have done well, but today, the alternatives are too plentiful and too nice.

Ben

I posted to simply share the news of a company that makes a product that users of this website might be interested in. I don’t make the packs or know the individual that does. I don’t own one either. Argue amongst yourselves! I just wanted to share a little info.

Its called free market capitalism.

Theres nothing “less honest” about offering a “reasonable quality copy of a larger company’s product for a lower price”.

You know, unless its “less honest” to buy off-brand jeans rather than Levi’s. “Less honest” to buy Safeway brand green beans rather than Del Monte. “Less Honest” than buying an equinox bivy rather than a Bibler one.

I guess we’ll see what the market bears… right?

Like I said, I wish him well. I personally find the strategy distasteful – for the same reason that I find it distasteful that there are so many indistinguishable products in so many markets, vying for profit based solely on marketing. How many different brands of rectangular tarps do we really need?

I will say that the prices on his shelter and stuff sacks are great.

As far as your final questions – I’m not sure if you are comparing Gossamer Gear to Levis, Del Monte, etc… I don’t know that it’s an apt comparison if you are. If you’re simply making a broader point about the perils of the free market, then I concur. Suffice to say that I don’t think that the consumer can necessarily be faulted for choosing the cheaper alternative, especially since the consumer typically isn’t privy to the back-end development and duplication process. In the end, it’s just about money – with green beans, few people have a problem with it. With this stuff, I think we’re all in this because we think there’s something more to this cottage industry idea.

Ben

Just ordered a couple of their Cuben Fiber Stuff sacks. Will post my experiences here at a later date.

As posted earlier, I feel more positive about the Zpack than some others…

However, the Ben’s stand united on one point: we are generally more impressed with gear makers who come out with truly innovative products than those who tinker with what others have earlier put out.

Revolution can be exciting, but evolution too can be a very good thing. We often take our capitalist markets for granted, but it’s competition that encourages both — and it’s good to have choices.

Ben.

I too am generally more impressed with innovation rather than adaptation… but if evoluttion has taught even one thing to the careful observer, it is that diversity – both on the large scale and the small – is what allows for long term sustainability.

Sounds like we’re approaching consensus :D Here’s hoping that the zpack project will result in diversity of choice for the UL consumer.

Ben

Ben S. wrote “5 years ago he might have done well, but today, the alternatives are too plentiful and too nice.”

That’s just he thing the… the options are NOT plentiful! How many 5.6 oz 2600 ci packs are there out there? I can think of only TWO in that range. The G6 and the Prophet.

Here is a line by line comparison. In order to make the comparison as fair as possible, I’m comparing the more expensive G6 with the waist belt and also adding the weight of the shoulder padding… since the Z1 includes shoulder padding and a waist belt. Likewise… for the MLD P30 I’m also including the weight of the removable waist belt… plus I’m using the most current P30 as weighed on my digital scale (the weights on the MLD site are our of date and based on an earlier model):

Z1: 5.65 oz, 1.1 Silnylon, 2600 ci, $70
G6: 5.70 oz, .96 Spinnaker, 2000 ci, $100
P30: 5.68 oz, .97 Spinntex Pro, 2130 ci, $105

Looking at those numbers… comparing apples to apples… the Z1 is the best deal. Whether or not it’s of comparable quality… I don’t think you can tell unless you see it in person. It’s certainly not more innovative than the others… and it doesn’t have all the nice features of the P30 (lots of lash points… ice axe loop… daisy chain on straps… sternum strap / pocket… etc.) but it’s cheaper, bigger, and made of more resilient material than both the G6 and the P30, and it has side pockets that the G6 currently lacks. So it’s got some good things going for it. And I don’t think he will cut into Ron or Glenn’s business. Those guys are leaders and they are always innovating… they both have an awesome reputation and will always do very well… I’m sure. And more options and competition are good for us… the consumer.

I also like that the side pockets on the z1 are low cut and seperate from the big back pocket. I personally don’t care for the wrap around pocket on the P30… at least not for carrying water. I find the pocket is a little high… making it hard to reach water bottles with the pack on. And I do 1.5 hours of yoga a day… so I’m insanely flexible :)

p.s. The G6 can carry more than 2000 ci… it has a very generous extension collar which will allow it to carry more than the P30. I own the G6 and the P30… and I’ll probably own the Z1 soon enough.

Hey guys, just to clarify, the current price of the G6 is $80.00 and will stay that way indefinately. I just haven’t remembered to change the website. The price for one with a waistbelt is $100.00 – this because they were retro-fitted on and its a costly way to do it. Also, Benjamin if you really want a G6 with side pockets email me grant@gossamergear.com and I’ll tell you how you might be able to get one.

Side pockets on the G6 would be nice. I wouldn’t be surprised to see it as an offical option on a future version. It’s probably one of the most obvious improvements that could be made to an already great pack. Personally… I sewed a daisy chain on my G6 shoulder straps to carry water. I did this first with the P30 since I found I couldn’t get to the water in the side pockets… and I’ve come to really like it! I haven’t tried it with my G6 yet… but I have a trip coming up in two weeks where I will try it out.

Grant, thanks for clarifying on the G6 price – that’s what I thought I remembered hearing before.

David – I agree on the water carrying issue. It’s so convenient on the shoulder straps! I, for one, look forward to your feedback (and hopefully some better pictures) if you do spring for a Z1. The discussion got a bit sidetracked re: imitation/lack of innovation, but the quality of the packs is my real concern. And you’re right – it’s probably hasty to judge before seeing either better pictures, or the pack in person.

Ben

Ben S – I was actually really surprised when I did my side by side comparison… that’s a big pack for the weight! I was surpised that when you accounted for shoulder padding and waist belts…. the P30 and G6 were almost exactly the same weight… and yet are made of lighter fabric and have less volume. Clearly… this Z1 pack is really stripped down. No axe loop, no haul loop, almost no lashing loops, no daisy chain, very narrow elastic in the big pocket, no buckle & strap for top compression… just a string and a mini-toggle… etc. And I’d probably cut off the waist strap… saving at least an ounce. Those big buckles are heavy.

I agree that where the shoulder straps attach at the top looks a little dicey. I’d still be willing to buy one tho’ and give it a try. Seems like a good deal. I’m definietly buying some of his cuben stuff sacks. I’ve been waiting for the NANO sacks to come in stock here at BPL for months now… and they’re twice the price.

One interesting thing about the pack is the seam up the back. That is the only full length vertical seam on the pack. Of course, where the pockets attach creates other “seams” where water could get in… if not sealed… but still… the one seam design is kinda neat. I think the G6 has four full length vertical seams… and the P30 has two (hence the wrap-around pocket). I’d say that less seams are better… but it also accounts for the Z1 having no lashing loops at all for attaching shock cord… so no compression and no attaching a pad to the back. That said… the internal volume is pretty generous… so there would be plenty of room for your pad inside the pack.

I like the stripped down pack and tougher material. For me I’m wary of the shoulder attachments, needs a sternum strap and slightly smaller waist belt and the overall height is too tall. Shrink the height to shrink the capacity would be good in my book. I don’t need a lot of space, it just encourages far to big of a load.

I tried 31 pounds on the bike today and was not a happy camper!

Christopher: Ya… I’m a little leary of all of the reinfocement points… esp. the top of the shoulder straps. Also… the G6 uses a fair amount of 4 oz 210 denier for reinforcement and the bottom / back. The Z1 uses 1.9 oz Silnylon for reinforcement and seems to use as little of it as possible. Just a small patch under where the shoulder straps attach… and none on the back. The P30 has a full denier 210 back and the G6 has a 1/3 denier 210 back. But maybe the use of the tougher and much more resilient 1.1 oz Silnylon for the body of the pack means you can get away with using lighter reinforcement material? Just a thought.

As for the size… here’s another of my side by side comparisons :)

G6: 12″ x 5″ x 33.5″
Z1: 12.5″ x 5.5″ x 33″
P30: 11″ x 6.5″ x 28″

So the Z1 is actually a smidgen shorter than the G6. The pictures show it with the “extension collar” (which, let’s say is everything about an inch or so above where the shoulder straps attach) pretty much full. As with the G6… a lot of that material at the top would probably be rolled up and cinched down… but it’s nice to have that extra space at the top if you’re ever out for a while and neat to pack a lot of food.

p.s. with regards to reinfircement again… I’ll say one thing… I certainly don’t think I’d carry the recommended max. of 25 lbs. in that pack. But my trips are typically under 15 lbs anyway.

Replying to myself now :P Like those people who talk to themselves in the street.

I was looking at the pics again… and clearly… this pack manages it’s great weight to volume ratio but sacrificing reinforcing material. Look at all the denier 210 material on the Gossamer Gear and Mountain Laurel Design packs! There’s a lot of it. Very well made. The zPack had almost none of that… and it’s 1.9 oz silnylon. Look for instance in this pic…

http://zpacks.com/images/backpacks/royal_back_l.jpg

how the bottom of the shoulder strap just goes right into the body of the pack… where the side pocket attaches. As opposed to the Prophet which has a trapezoid shaped denier peice sewn into a main seam.

http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/images/prophet30back.jpg

The G6 has a similar attachment point.

The other thing that bothers me a little is the way things are just sewn on to the pack where there is no continuous seam… if you know what I mean. Like in that picture above again… the way the pocket just attaches right to the middle of the material. Most packs are designed so that pockets and such attached where there is a full, continuous seam.

That said… I’m still willing to give it a try :) Anyway… it’s nice having extra gear… it allows me to outfit my friends when they go on trips with me… so they can experience hiking without 40 pounds on their back.