Mystery Ranch Backpacks equals Dana Design quality?

My time does not allow me to go on hiking trips that are much longer in duration. And in any case, the major difference is simply the inclusion of more food and fuel — which I keep very light weight.

My favorite thing to do — more than even hiking — is traveling. Each year, I pick one or two adjacent countries and backpack for a month. No itineraries except for the beginning and return dates, and not knowing a soul there. Traveling and hiking take up 99.99% of my vacation days.

But enough about me, what hikes do you do?

Now back to economics. Do this for me. Completely cast aside the notion that “it just doesn’t seem right that we keep selling out to the sweat laborers in Asia” — and SERIOUSLY think through this:

FACT: The US has been shedding manufacturing jobs just about EVERY SINGLE YEAR FOR THE LAST 50 YEARS!!!

QUESTION: Why is it, do you think, that our standard of living has gotten higher and higher in every single decade of the last 50 years?

The phenomenon needs to be studied, understood and cherished — NOT taken for granted and lightly tossed out because of IGNORANCE! Refer back to what you have learned from your studies in Economics.

Think through and come back with a satisfactory answer that explains the above. Then we’ll talk.

Richard, my diagnosis of your condition is…

Ultralight envy

“I question many of the posters here because I have lurked here for a while and many here seem to be little more than Internet gearheads. Many of the posters here I dont believe could hack real backpacking and arent really interested in actually going out on the trail.”

It seems like some strange form of OCD…cutting out EVERY ounce of weight, entering your “base weight” in MS Excel spreadsheets. Very odd indeed. I am glad I experienced backpacking a lot before ultra-lightweight backpacking becamse this marketing fad it is right now. Many seem to be obsessed with spreadsheets, cutting every ounce out and other oddness.”

Gee, you get on an Internet forum with topics like “gear” and “gear list” and you’re surprised at what you see? Hehehe– DOH!

Of course there are a lot of people obsessed with getting the weight trimmed down to the minimum. The hiking equipment industry got out of control and there is a little reactionary over-swing and some evangelizing. It’s a given for me that weighing and analyzing each item that I take on a hike is the only way to learn how to get it light-lighter-lightest. I found my limits of comfort and safety and I won’t go where a lot of people have to get fantic-fringe pack weights. It is interesting and no doubt a hobby for many here.

If you make it past the first couple forums, you’ll see all kinds of threads on trips and places to go and not nearly so nerdy.

As to hauling a 50 pound pack, I’ve done that and if I can get the same quality of food, hydration and shelter from a 20 pound load and enjoy the trip more, why in the world would I want to haul a bunch of junk I don’t need? I see no gain (or manliness) in hauling an overbuilt pack, a sleeping bag made for -30F when I’m hiking in moderate temperatures, a shelter that take sup four times the resources needed, or wearing big heavy boots. If you don’t buy into it, more power to ya, but you just walked into the Church of Lightness and told the faithful they are heathens! We say here, “thou shalt hike thy own hike.”

Richard, since you bring up NOLS, you might be interested in this—-
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/pr_20051130.html

You know, you really should let people hike their own hike— rather than excercising the nuclear option, you might make a few friends on this site. Use your Mystery Ranch pack to do whatever it is you do. No one’s stopping you. Hell, I don’t even think it’s a ridiculous approach.

I used to use a Dana for heavy hauling, Winter ski-packing and the like. Now I can do the same things (apart from expedition mtneering and schlepping tons of tech climbing gear) w/ much lighter equipment. There really has been a revolution in materials technology over the last decade and some of us are taking advantage of it. The 45-50 lb. loads I once carried for a week to 10 days are now down to about 20 lbs. I don’t need a pack that makes a 50 lb. load feel like 20, when the 22 oz. ULA pack I use makes 20 lbs. literally feel like I’m not carrying a load at all. Furthermore, since this is a concern of yours, a lot of UL gear can be found that is made domestically, cottage industry style. In fact the bulk of my core UL gear is made in the USA— and I wasn’t even trying.

Hee hee, Dale— same message, eh?

Dear Richard,

Do you own an American car? If you do, your car has chinese parts in it. You have paid to support the Chinese manufacturing industry: you have sent your money to China.

Every single American vehicle sold today has Chinese parts in it; even the ones featured in “buy American to support Americans” ads. All of them.

Two years from now, most Delphi parts will be Mexican-made and a large
portion of GM cars will ship here from China fully-assembled.

Welcome to the global economy… see you on the bus!

Brian

PS the two chinese machinists who work in the production facility at my office tell me that they enjoyed a higher standard of living and had better purchasing power in northern China than they do here. But then again I’m Canadian; I am probably taking a job from an American too!

John— URL must have changed. Looks like it now links to a generic Viagra retail site. :-O

‘‘Ultralight is such an easy concept to grasp,” Gleason conceded. But for many backpackers, ultralight packs can’t carry a ‘‘real world” load, he added.

‘‘Our packs are for people who truly use the gear and don’t just read the magazines and dream about it,” Gleason said. ‘‘And it will last 15 to 17 years. The material has a lifetime guarantee.”

http://www.strongcopywriting.com/bozeman-montana-53-bozeman-backpacks-lead-the-pack.html

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Said so well…ultra-light is for short trips, posers, wanna-bes and people who read about this stuff on the net or in magazines more than they actually hump a ruck.

Dear Richard,

Do you own an American car? If you do, your car has chinese parts in it. You have paid to support the Chinese manufacturing industry: you have sent your money to China.

---

I am already well aware of such things. I was taught in economic Geography courses in the early nineties that China would be taking away most…almost all…of America’s robust manufacturing capabilities.

>Every single American vehicle sold today has Chinese parts in it; even the ones featured in “buy American to support Americans” ads. All of them.

---

no sh*t, sherlock. What do you think I am upset about?

>Two years from now, most Delphi parts will be Mexican-made and a large
portion of GM cars will ship here from China fully-assembled.

---

I dont doubt it at all.

>Welcome to the global economy… see you on the bus!

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Yes…the “global economy” sucks. Goodbye America as a superpower!

>Brian

>PS the two chinese machinists who work in the production facility at my office tell me that they enjoyed a higher standard of living and had better purchasing power in northern China than they do here.

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I dont doubt it at all.

> But then again I’m Canadian; I am probably taking a job from an American too!
__________________________________________

You should be so proud of yourself for taking an American job!

Oookaay—looks like attempts at meaningful communication are wasted.

I’m outta this thread — the earlier poster was right— don’t u’all feed dis motha troll, no mo.

This is a discussion forum about lightweight backpacking. Economics could be discussed at http://amazingforums.com/forum/IRVIN/forum.html

Regardless of our different approaches to enjoying the outdoors, I believe civility is still in order. Enjoy your day.

Stop! By arguing you’re all only giving this guy the boner he came here looking for. This is one of the few forums I can count on if I want to avoid flame wars and internet diarrhea. Lets keep it constructive. And, everyone knows that Mystery Ranch makes good, home-sewn packs, so lets let this thread die!

Richard,

How many miles do you typically cover in a day? Typically its 20-30 for me.

Going light has allowed me to do this much more comfortably than with a traditional load. I did 25 miles once with a pack that was ~80 lbs (don’t know for sure, never weighed anything back then)and I was toast for the next few days afterwards. With lighter weight gear I can do those distances day after day.

Since I don’t have lots of time off (I’m a college student) I need to be able to move quickly when I do, so I can get a good hike in. I much prefer hiking to camping. I get bored in camp quickly so hiking well into the night is normal. When I do get to camp I can fall asleep right way.

Anyways, my gear facititates MY goals and MY style of backpacking. This site and forum have helped my refine my system to function for me. I wouldn’t force upon anyone to do the same. As the saying goes… Hike your own hike!

Roy

Wow… this one got ugly!!!

Richard… I have to say… early in the thread I really felt for you. You asked a simple question about a backpack and the thread got hijacked by a discussion of sweatshops. That’s not cool. We should stay on topic and answer your question… not pick fights.

However… when you said that backpacking is all about pain… always was and always will be… I was like… what the…!? No it’s not. Not at all. When I’m hiking with a 5 pound load on my back after eating the last of my food (before either resupply or the end of the trip)… backpacking is a sheer joy. You should try it… really. It’s a whole different experience. Of course… you can’t get a 5 pound base load if you’re climbing Everest (or probably anything for that matter)… but 5 pounds is not all that hard to achieve for “regular” backpacking. With a full load of food… that will go up to 12-20 pounds… depending on how long your trip or leg is (till the next resupply)… but that’s still a joy compared to 60 pounds.

And what’s this about “real” backpacking trips?! I don’t blame you for getting angry when your post was basically ignored and people went off about sweatshops… and there are few things more annoying than self-righteousness… but dude… that’s just plain insulting.

As for the Excel sheets… yes… it DOES seem really anal… heck… it IS really anal… but the thing is… when you stop counting those grams and ounces and just start throwing stuff in a pack… that’s how you end up with a 60 pound pack. The spreadsheets force you to really evaluate what you’re taking… question everything… and also really help to show you where your weight it… where you could cut down… where you’re doing well… etc.

As for sweatshops… you know… really… almost everything we buy is made overseas. I try to avoid the obvious things… like WalMart… but really… unless you want to work full-time researching every single thing you eat, buy, invest in, use, own… etc… or just move to a commune… chances are that you support unfair labor practices to SOME degree or other. And I know that there are lots of good choices we can all make… and it’s good to be aware… but I’m just sayin’… it’s hard to avoid every single trace of it. It’s pretty much built in to our current globalized, free-trade economy. So you know… we’re all more or less living in glass houses on this issue. And glass houses aside… this is a backpacking forum anyway. Enough said… from me anyway :)

Ben,

Maybe I’ll see ya up on Mt. Whitney, I’m due to be there ~ Aug 15th-17th.

Roy

Roy said “Anyways, my gear facititates MY goals and MY style of backpacking. This site and forum have helped my refine my system to function for me”

You said it Roy! I remember my first trip… 40+ pounds… and LOTS of pain!!! Then I heard about lightweight options (before discovering this site) and got down to a miraculous 30 pounds!!! Woo Hoo! Then 27!!! I thought I was doing really well. Then I discovered this site and I was like WHAT?!?! You guys are going out there with 5 pound base weights?! Holy! Now I routinely carry a base weight of 6 pounds and I’m very safe and comfortable. I absolutely could NOT have done that without this site. No way. I’ve learned almost everything I know about true ultralight backpacking from this site.

Roy:

I just re-checked my schedule — we’re driving in 8/13 and summiting/returning on 8/15! Maybe we will bump into each other!

Richard,

Have a look at this website:

http://www.arctic1000.com

Read it thoroughly. It describes a feat by ultralight backpackers who spend plenty of nights in the bush… maybe a hundred a year for all I know. How many nights a year do you get in?

The expedition showed that lightweight gear and technique can allow a person to walk 600 miles in 3 weeks — without re-supplying, hunting, or fishing. Every ounce of food and equipment that they needed was contained in their packs on when they were at the trailhead. How far can your pack take you?

These guys had 55-lb packs too. But since they made some high-tech and carefully-considered gear choices, *their* 55-lb packs contained enough equipment and food to carry a person 1000 kilometres through Alaska. Can your 55 lbs do that?

That, in a nutshell, is why many people choose to go light: it enables them to do more with the time, weather, and fitness that they have for their trip. I 100% guarantee it: a given person who has a given length of time to hike in will be able to hike fewer miles and will have less fun with a heavier pack on. There’s no way around it.

Brian

The Mystery Ranch G-6000 pack (6400 cubic inches) weighs 7 lbs 13 ounces.

http://www.mysteryranch.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4

Add to that a quality down sleeping bag that weighs 2 lbs flat (Versalite Super):

http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Sleeping%20Bags&cat=ExtremeLite%20Series&viewpost=2&ContentId=20

And a GoLite.com tarp shelter (Hut 1) that weighs:

1 lb, 1 oz

AND:

You end up with a base weight of still only 10 lbs, 13 oz. Still well within the 12 lb cutoff mark base pack weight for ultra-lighters!

And just think, with a superior frame/suspension system and hip belt that you get with one of these Mystery Ranch G-packs or NICE pack frames, you can add 20 more pounds of food, miscellaneous gear and youd hardly feel it!

Guys who have been talking about long distance, “unsupported” thru-hiking ought to be seriously looking at one of these pack systems.

You need to remember it is not only the weight of the pack, but how that weight is distributed! That is backpacking 101. I learned that when I was only 14 years old.

Richard,

Have a look at this website:

http://www.arctic1000.com

Read it thoroughly. It describes a feat by ultralight backpackers who spend plenty of nights in the bush… maybe a hundred a year for all I know. How many nights a year do you get in?

The expedition showed that lightweight gear and technique can allow a person to walk 600 miles in 3 weeks — without re-supplying, hunting, or fishing. Every ounce of food and equipment that they needed was contained in their packs on when they were at the trailhead.

---

That is impressive…

How good were their backpacks? Hopefully they didnt use one of those 1 lb Gossamer Gear bag packs on this Alaska trip.

They used 2-lb backpacks, and the only comfort complaints were of tired legs.

Maybe you could email one of those guys and ask him if he wished he’d had an extra 5 pounds on his back for the entire 1000 kilometres.

As for the case of less extreme distances, remember that the weight only has to be *well-distributed* if the weight is *there*.

An example is your daypack: it doesn’t distribute weight worth beans, right? Neither does mine. But who cares: it never weighs more than 20 pounds!

Well friend, you can backpack for a week with only 20 lbs total in your pack — in equivalent safety and (camping) comfort to your 60-lb human-mule trip.

The only difference is that you’ll cover double the miles and your risk of injury will be half or less. And you’ll be less fatiqued so you’ll make better decisions and be more resistant to temperature and altitude. And you’ll be looking around and smiling instead of suffering while you’re walking.

I could have used my daddy’s old National Guard duffel bag for my “rucksack” going by the standards set with most of these ultra-lite backpacks!

Just strap that thing on, you dont need a frame or a hip belt. Just strap that thing on and walk super fast like youre on a forced march. Be sure to stop and smell the roses!

LOL!

Recruit: “Please Drill Instructor, water break! I’m gonna throw up.”

Drill Instructor: “You dumba** recruit, if you had only used that MOLLE pack with a good hipbelt and not worn your daddy’s duffel bag on your back, you wouldnt be throwing up right now. By the way recruit, is your puke chunky or soupy? Lets make a bet with the other DIs whether your puke is gonna be chunky or soupy.”

I read the posts here and I seriously wonder if many of the “ultra-lighters” here understand backpacking 101. That is, you can play “tricks” with physics by packing the load close and high on your back. Combine this with a rigid suspension system that will transfer this weight to your hip region and a good hip belt and voila! Youve played tricks with physics and can make a 40 lb load feel like about 25 lbs.

Since most backpackers rarely venture off the trail, I honestly wonder why the old aluminum external frame backpacks are no longer big sellers. I guess they dont look cool enough, but they sure do tranfer the weight to the hips well. And make pounds evaporate off the back.

>hey used 2-lb backpacks, and the only >comfort complaints were of tired legs.

Yeah right…and you expect me to believe that shit? BULLSHIT!

I am going to say this here…I really shouldnt. But it is what I have picked up from observation. There is nothing wrong at all with going lightweight. I was taught to go lightweight, carry tarps when possible, etc. at an early age.

But the owners here talk about “marketing hype” by the mainstream outdoor companies in a derisive manner. They are hypocrites. This company and other ultra-light companies have some of their own marketing hype going on bigtime.

All thats been done here and other places is lightweight backpacking has been taken and marketed. Its been made to look cool, hip and the gear is colorful and shiny. The ultra-lightweight industry is no better than the mainstream outdoor industry.

Ive been a backpacker since the eighties and this ultra-light thing is a fad…its just as much marketing as old style internal frame packs that weighed six to eight pounds is.

The problem is some here just cant recognize marketing bs when they see it.

I am done here…goodbye and have fun carrying that 25 lb bag on your back without a hip belt or frame!!!!!

Uhhh that is not your baseweight. Weigh everything in your pack that you will be carrying, excluding consumables (food, water, and fuel). THAT is your baseweight.

oh and I carry 18 lbs for 5 days with a hipbelt mister smarty!