She sells down shells by the trail store

[Daniel Fosse]

Hi all,
Now that I have added some down puffy jacket action to my gear, which is a first for me, how do I go about selecting a shell for it? I was thinking someting for rain, abbrasion and or wind.

I don't know much about wind/rain jackets except if I go to any online shop there are 1 million of them rangeing from $75-750 (yes I'm full of exageration).

How complicated can a wind/rain shirt/coat be anway? It all smells like fasion label price jacking to me.

Any suggestions? Walmart have any thin nylon pullover that'll do the trick?

[Steven McAllister]

Light, highly breathable, water resistant and down proof material for the outer shell is kinda expensive.

If it doesn't breath enough, you could have moisture issues. If it isn't water repellent enough, it will get wet from light rain. If it is too heavy…

[Michael Febbo]

Unless you are engaged in high altitude mountaineering you will only wear the down jacket while in camp- and its out fabric should be rather windproof already. Abrasion should not be an issue- just be careful. If you really fear damaging a down jacket, either stop doing what might harm the jacket, or get a synthetic one instead.

So, if it is raining in camp simply use whatever rain shell you already have. The only caveat is to make sure it is not too tight as you do not want to overly compress the down. Otherwise, anythinig will work, from a cheap poncho to a $700 Arcteryx jacket.

It sounds like you are really asking what rain shell to buy, and the down jacket is just confusing the issue. What do you have currently?

Edit: as to how complicated a rain jacket can be- you can spend well under $100 and stay dray from rain, but you will likely sacrifice weight, breathability and/or features. There is a performance difference between a $300 Event shell and a $100 marmot Precip. Whether the extra cost is outweighed by better breathabiity and durability is up to you.

[Daniel Fosse]

I'm not really looking for material to make a down coat. I already have the coat. I'm looking for advise on a good 3rd layer. If it is, for example, cold and raining, I may want my wool base layer(nex to skin), down puffy (mid), and something over that. Mind you, just for rain, wind, abbrasion. Does not have to be bomb proof or designed for -30degrees F.

I don't really hike any colder than 30degrees F.

EDIT:
You are right. I guess a rain coat or something is what I need. I read and hear about wind coats alot here. It isn't windy where I hike, though it is wet at times.

Just confused about all the options at the shops. I mean if something is waterproof is is probabely wind proof. But I guess wind proof does not equal water proof.

[Stephan Doyle]

There are, as you say, far too many options for one to possibly try them all. So how should you go about finding one that works well for you?

Budget, budget, budget. If you're willing to spend $500, you're going to get better performance. How much better? Well, that's debatable. Decide how much you're willing to spend, and then look around in that price range. Feel free to ask around here and search the forums and read reviews.

Also, as another poster mentioned, you shouldn't need a separate shell for your down jacket, but the shell layer is, IMO, the most essential item of clothing. Without storm protection, nothing else is effective under conditions when you're most at risk.

[Mike M]

might want to do a search on windshirt- they are are very versatile piece of gear- they can cover a much wider range of conditions than rain gear at very little weight penalty (3-5 oz)

they are not a substitute for rain gear, but if your in area that gets very little rain some folks opt for the windshirt and leave the rain gear home- windshirts have a DWR finish (that varies between brands- the more water repellent the less breathable typically) that can take light rain/snow just fine

as mentioned above, w/ the exception of being at camp, the likelihood of wearing rain gear (or wind gear) over your insulating layer is slim, but you do want to take in account your insulating layer when purchasing the shell as the occasions you are wearing a shell there needs to be enough room for the insulating layer to fully loft

many folks carry rain gear AND a winshirt (depends a lot on where you stomp around)- I usually carry both (always the windshirt, sometime not the rain shell) and my windshirt sees daily action (and fortunately my rain gear see much more infrequent use :) )

[Michael Febbo]

You're right- windproof does not equal waterproof, but waterproof is (for our purposes) windproof.

And yes, there are SO many options that it quickly gets confusing. As posted, start with how much you want to spend and where you hike (Ohio?).

Main options:
Umbrellas: yes, these can work. Not ideal for the temps you are talking about, but great for light summer showers.

Ponchos: cheap, light, versatile. I only like them in summer- but even then find them a bit hot due to non-breathable fabric. I do not like them in any real wind, and you still get some moisture in and around the arms and lower legs. Not ideal (IMO) for temps below 50. Some people use them everywhere.

Non-breathable rain jackets (such as Helly Hanson Voss, Equinox's rain shells): cheap, very durable and very waterproof. However- even with good ventings options, these tend to be very hot. Often, you will find yourself soaked in perspiration. So, you are avoiding a cold soaking from rain but exchanging that for a warm, soggy soaking from the inside.

Waterproof-breathable:(everything from a Marmot Precip to Arcteryx Alpha stuff)
This is where the options get crazy. Generally, the less expensive choices use some kind of coating (each company has their own names for these) and the more expensive use a laminate (Gore-Tex, Event). These all work to some extent, with the laminates usually boasting higher breathability and durability than the coatings. This is not always true, but is a good rule of thumb.
Most people who choose a rain jacket use these as the fabrics do make a noticable differenece in internal comfort (you will sweat less). Don't think, however, that you will not sweat at all… I always do, regardless of the jacket.

Lastly, some people (myself included) carry a very light wind shell and rain shell. I do this because the wind shell (usually, depends on the shell) breathes much better than any rain jacket. Thus, I can more comfortably wear it to fend off bugs and protect from wind while remaining cool. Also, by only use my rain shell when it is actually raining, I maintain it's DWR and longevity (less abrasion, less use of zippers, etc). If you go this route, a cheap rain jacket may work well.

So, start with a budget, then what features you need (large enough to fit over a down coat). Then search the forums, most rain shells have been discussed to some degree.

If this is already common knowledge for you then I apologize, if not, I hope it helps.

[Scott Truong]

I've never used a windjacket (like to) and don't own down garments as of yet, but I'm a huge fan of "Event" fabric.

It's heavier (10+ oz) but it is super breathable. I use it for snowboarding and hiking over a 150 gm merino and it keeps all the wind out on the chairlift and keeps me very comfortable even when sweating while hiking (probably the wool). You don't sweat indoors either.

You might want a lighter option, it probably is overkill for summer, but not late fall and early spring and I'd be very happy to have it if got really blusterly.

Some guy is selling an integral designs Medium Event rain coat on gear swap. Not sure what kind of deal it is… I think it's 10 oz. I have a westcomb specter 11 oz. Not super bombproof (abrasion could be problem) but likely better than nylon/pertex.

[Stephan Doyle]

This hasn't come up, and it's important and deserving of a quick mention.

Softshells have their place. Great pieces of gear. But they're only water resistant, wind resistant, etc. They breathe extremely well, but they're heavy and, as they're often insulated, more for cold-weather excursions.

Hardshells are a gear essential. The good ones are waterproof and windproof. Won't breathe as well as a softshell or stretch, but they block the elements.

Windshells are very lightweight and breathable. They serve as an extra layer for when the wind is chilling you down. Can usually stop a brief rain, but I wouldn't want to leave my hardshell at home with just one of these for most any of the hikes I do.

[Daniel Fosse]

Micheal and everyone,
Very helpful. I have one piece of raingear I got 20 years ago. It's like a 200D PU coated poncho, it's waterproof and blast proof and weighs well over a pound.

When I went light, I left it in the closet. I had fleece for insulation and just hid under a rock, garbage bag, or tarp in the rain.

I've never had one of these fancy down puffs before. I think it will serve me better than my fleece. I will really only need it in late fall, early spring where it gets down to maybe 40F. Unfortunately, there is a good chance of rain in those seasons too.

Last March I went out for a weekend and luckily it did not rain but it got down to about 38F one night. I had my teeshirt, fleece, and a MontBell Down #3. I forze my butt off. This motivated me to get a down puff. This is a very lavish purchase for me and I just don't want to ruin it.

Looks like a new breathable raincoat in the 5-10oz range will run $75-150. Too ritch for my blood right now.

The OR Zealot looks really nice and it must be because everyone is out of stock. Anyone know the street price for this?

[Michael Febbo]

Daniel,

Check out Driducks- under $30 for jacket and pants. These are very light, breathe very well, but are also fragile. They are an option if you are careful.

As for freezing at night, take a look at your sleeping pad. Often, people use pads with insufficient insulative qualities and think it is their bag/clothing that left them cold.

lastly, try not to hike with the down jacket on. This will not only reduce longevity, but will deflate the down due to dirt and moisture. Fleece still is a great option for insulation while on the move.

You sound resourceful- that's awesome!

[Ben Froburg]

My $0.02:
In the east, you always need a rain shell, at least up top (maybe not in Florida?). Not a wind shell.

If your not going above treeline, a poncho, garbage bag, etc., can work.

In drier regions, you have more options.

After all that (as previously mentioned) its all about the budget. I've hiked 3000 mi + with a $60 northface venture.

[Robert Cowman]

it was discontinued last year in favor of the Pertex garments.

[Adan Lopez]

Assuming hiking in the rain is rare, as it is for me:

Watch the gear swap forum, a water resistant windshirt will come up between 40-60 bucks in no time.

Marmot, Patagonia, Golite, etc
great for hiking a couple hours in light rain
windproof and weighs almost nothing
Size up so it doesnt compress your down.
Dont bushwack in your puffy
puffy = warm, campfire = warm, campfire + puffy = newpuffy

edit: +1 to "Use what you have"

[Daniel Fosse]

I've herd not to bushwack in the puffy. Makes sense. I do some off trail but I can't seen needing down on if I'm really hoofing it anyway, even if it's 30F out.

I know out west there is space between the trees. In Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee the brush is thick. A puffy would be done in a hurry.

funny! Fire plus most of my gear = sad face

My sleeping pad is a 15 year old CCF ridge rest. Do they wear out?

Thanks for the dry ducks tip.

[Steven McAllister]

I don't own a down jacket. I do wear a down vest, but only when I rest, in camp or to supplement when I'm sleeping in cold weather.
Hiking, even below freezing, can be done with a fleece and windshirt. The rain jacket does need to be packed for when it really gets wet and can go over the windshirt when it's cold and rain or snow is falling.

The vest really comes into play when at rest, in camp and especially in the AM when your blood isn't flowing yet, you have to make hot drinks and need the extra warmth.

I don't think I've ever hiked in down?

[Kate Magill]

If you're only hiking 3-season in above-freezing temps, I wouldn't worry too much about bringing down–unless you're a really cold sleeper. I bring my hooded puffy jacket on fall trips as part of my sleep system, and it makes getting up and breaking down camp way easier in the morning. A good down jacket should have a pretty water-resistant shell to keep out damp and mist, but if it's really raining you'll want, well, a rain jacket. Some people like ponchos, but I don't (they make me feel like the little kid in the ghost costume at Halloween, and they get clammy and clingy).

Just remember that although waterproof fabrics purport to be breathable, not even the highest-end jackets will ventilate 100% of your moisture. My advice is to find a jacket with as many zipper vents as possible–the only surefire way to keep the clammies on the outside. I have a OR Aspire and love it; the pitzips go all the way down to the bottom hem. It's not an ultralight piece, but the PacLite fabric is good and burly, so it can double as a ski shell in the winter. I don't want to have to worry about babying my outerlayers. I tried a Sierra Designs Isotope Nano a couple of years back, and gave up because of the wear my pack straps caused on the super delicate membrane–not worth the weight savings. I'm sure there are better ultralight H2Oproof pieces out there, but I haven't found em.

I second the windshirt recs–I always take my Golite Wisp, it's tiny and weighs almost nothing, and mine is orange which is useful when I'm out during hunting season.

PS–My mom loved her driducks, until her bouncy puppy put claw holes in them. Now she's got a nice Golite shell instead, and some Marmot rainpants.

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