Is non-waterproof footwear really better?

gore-tex socks work for me, when it's cool

Andy,

I don't have the constant wet here in Calif that other locations have. Typically when doing a lot of stream crossings, I am then hiking on dry trails and the mesh quickly dries. Often in fall and spring there are sections of snow, then dry trails. Same thing, the shoes dry out. Occassionally, I do all wet trips in snow. Rocky GTX socks work best for me, compensating for the low cut trail runners. Anymore, the only time I use GTX shoes is in cold desert hiking. They are cool enough in this weather so I don't soak my socks in sweat and the GTX keeps my feet clean from sand and dust that permeate mesh shoes. All in all, GTX causes more problems than it solves.

"All in all, GTX causes more problems than it solves."

Agreed nick.

What do you do when you come across water deeper than your goretex? Now you're tiptoeing around, changing shoes, etc…
Easier to just find shoes that drain and dry quickly.

I have used nothing but WPB boots for some 30 years and have never regretted it. Not having to worry about wet meadows on really cold mornings, slushy snow patches, and even rainstorms is great. But apparently some people's feet sweat more. I became aware of this back in my forestry days when I would wear heavy socks under my work boots and never feel overheated or too sweaty while some of my co-workers couldn't do the same.

The one thing I learned working in the woods – there is no such thing as an after-market water proofing treatment for leather. We tried everything. The best would only slow it down a bit.

+1 to Nick.

Other thoughts.
1) GTX are more expensive.
2) I am 0-3 for gtx being completely waterproof.
3) They are hotter than non-gtx.

I may try gtx socks for next year's snowshoe season.

My last two pairs of hiking shoes have been waterproof ones (GoreTex XCR and then HellyTech XP). Initially they worked alright but eventually both pairs became non-waterproof and a non-waterproof pair of waterproof shoes is the worst thing because it doesn't keep your feet dry, nor does it ever dry out. Accordingly, the useful life of these shoes was greatly reduced.

I now favor non waterproof, very breathable shoes and then added Rocky GTX socks if desired.

Craig wrote: "What do you do when you come across water deeper than your goretex? Now you're tiptoeing around, changing shoes, etc…"

That's what I see as a _theoretical_ big advantage of GTX socks. Wear the shoes only with no socks for the deeper crossings, and then when done, the GTX socks separate the wet shoes from the dry socks. I wonder how well this actually works though.

I've tried Gore-Tex lined boots, but the only thing I've found that is completely waterproof is leather. Unfortunately, all leather boots are heavy. So, for day hiking on snow, I tend to bring my all leather, full size boots. For backpacking this time of year, I bring my lighter trail runners, but I tend to get wet feet (still lots of snow up there). To deal with it, I just bring additional socks.

mesh non for summer
gtx socks for winter, synthetic insulated shoes/boots or vapor barries or thick wool socks, layered

I enjoy GTX in my mountaineering boots.

However my generally hiking shoes I prefer non-GTX models. Just wish Salomon would come out with a non-GTX version of their new Wing Sky model. Love to give that a try. Oh well maybe they are holding out have something "new" to introduce in 2011. I'll just keep running my XA 3D Pros in the mean time.

My feet don't sweat much when I hike and given the conditions, I ALWAYS trek in GTX shoes. A hiking buddy has issues with trench foot and doesn't.

BTW, I have never had a GTX shoe fail on me.

"Unfortunately, all leather boots are heavy"

I wish I could find a pair of simple all leather (unlined) light hiking shoes. I've been considering moccasins, or something similar, but I would prefer to have a bit more insulation in the sole for snow use. Leather + merino wool = foot heaven.

I wear Chacos pretty much year round. I can add a liner or thicker wool sock, some waterproof socks, or just some bread bags to my feet as the case dictates in a fast fashion. Much more versatile but I can see the same thing being done with a mostly mesh trail runner.

""All in all, GTX causes more problems than it solves."

Agreed nick.

What do you do when you come across water deeper than your goretex? Now you're tiptoeing around, changing shoes, etc…
Easier to just find shoes that drain and dry quickly."

That completely depends on the conditions you're hiking in. Assuming that it's a warm, sunny day in the Rockies, then I'd agree, but if you're in the middle of a three day rain out East, you've got a long wait before much of anything dries.

To each their own.

But I find it interesting to note that none of the big-mile trekkers I've read about- Skurka, Jardine, Erin McKittrick and Bretwood Higman, to name a few- wear GTX footwear.

All seem to be pretty comfortably resigned to the idea of simply having wet feet in shoes that are capable of draining quickly. In their wild coast trek, Erin and Bretwood were wet for months…

I've learned a lot by reading the gear lists and trip reports of these folks- their techniques have always seemed grounded in pretty solid logic and have worked for me.

In over 30 years of using various brands I have not had a pair that leaked within any reasonable lifespan. The soles have always worn out before they started leaking.

It's personal, but I am a huge fan.

I started with W-B boots but now I always take Gore Tex sox. It's a more flexible arrangement. I can wear the socks with a variety of footwear and I don't have to wear them if it's hot. If I have to ford a stream I take off my socks and put my shoes back on, ford, and then put my shoes on with Gore Tex socks over my regular socks. The evaporation of the water on the shoes even helps keep my feet cooler.

Why is it that no one has made eVent socks? They should be plenty breathable and keep feet from sweating too much. The only con I can think of is that they may not be durable enough for use as socks.

-Sid

I asked Ron at MLD if he would make eVent socks as he makes the mitts but he said no. That was probably the best shot at something like that.

> a _theoretical_ big advantage of GTX socks. Wear the shoes only with no socks for
> the deeper crossings, and then when done, the GTX socks separate the wet shoes
> from the dry socks. I wonder how well this actually works though.

How well it works is a question; what purpose it serves is a better one.

Many of us who wear light mesh joggers and walk straight through creeks have zero problems with wet (wool) socks. They squeeze dry very quickly. But many joggers get a bit heavier when they get wet, so keeping the socks dry doesn't serve much purpose.

Seems to me that adding GTX socks is just adding extra weight to your feet and getting prunish feet to no advantage at all.

Cheers

there is no stretch version of event yet, therefore it is not really usable for socks. furthermore socks tend to get pretty dirty and event does not handle this that good.

here is no stretch version of event yet, therefore it is not really usable for socks. furthermore socks tend to get pretty dirty and event does not handle this that good.

My Goretex socks don't really have any stretch in them, so I am not sure this would be a problem. I got them more for keeping my feet warm in certain conditions, rather than keeping them dry. I also may use them as camp wear, but plastic bags would probably do as well.

One option with gtex socks could be to use a tight strap around the top of them when crossing a deep stream and then take the strap off after a crossing. This wouldn't be feasible here in NZ as you can be crossing rivers many, many times a day, but may work for some people.

I've owned two pairs of boots with GTX in them – the first a pair of insulated leather Timberland boots and the second a pair of fabric boots. The Timberland boots promptly became unwearable in anything above 10 C because the GTX clogged up with sweat and dirt – remember, you are supposed to regularly clean GTX rain jackets but how do you wash a membrane that's sandwiched between leather and Thinsulate? In effect the GTX turned into a plastic bag. The fabric boots were OK but on one walk I came down Shirouma-san (i.e., Hakuba where the winter olympics were held) in a typhoon and discovered that when you sew a gore-tex bootie into a fabric boot the needle holes let in water.

Best boots I've ever had were my Scarpa full-leather boots – they never leaked water, not even in Tasmania and I could also wear them in hot weather without any problems.

D W Wrote:
"The Timberland boots promptly became unwearable in anything above 10 C because the GTX clogged up with sweat and dirt – remember, you are supposed to regularly clean GTX rain jackets but how do you wash a membrane that's sandwiched between leather and Thinsulate? In effect the GTX turned into a plastic bag."

I have both sweaty feet and hands. GoreTex boots give me similar results to D W above.

I was in the bike shop last fall, looking for winter bicycling gloves that would keep my hands warm without sweating up. I have a large sack full of "waterproof breathable" gloves that are sweat bags.

The young man was showing me a bike glove that had WPB claims written all over the package. I stressed my problem and demanded to know if I could return them if they didn't work out.

A deep voice spoke out from the back of the shop and said "DON'T YOU SELL HIM THOSE GLOVES ! !" It was the voice of the shop owner.

He went on to say "I have the same problem and there isn't a damned pair of gloves in my shop that will keep my hands warm and dry. Your best bet is to get fleece gloves that inhibit the wind…. that offer a little resistance when you try to blow air through them. You'll have to look and test every pair you buy."

So, I went back to my usual shopping for fleece gloves, and I blow air through them and pick whatever gloves offer some extra wind resistance. At least there is one honest bike shop owner who refused to make a bad sale to a customer.

For sweaty hands, GoreTex gloves are just plastic sweat bags (for winter bicycling). Your mileage may vary.