JMT bear canister advice: pack low volume food!

Hi, Jesse —

Looks like I'll be starting just a little bit behind you. Which direction are you going? I'm going N->S, starting July 13.

I'm surprised that you had that much trouble fitting 6 days' food for one person in a 700 in3 canister. In the past, I haven't had any trouble fitting 7 days in 650 in3. I weigh 140 lb, and I usually take about 2100 calories/day, which works out to about a pound per day. I go no-cook, which probably helps; I think a lot of the prepackaged foods probably have poor energy density.

-Ben

Ah, yes the detail I didn't provide. Based on my calculations (but not as much experience as I'd like) I packed about 3750 per day, or just about 2 pounds each day.

I weigh about 160 pounds and based on available data I think I'll be burning between 3700 and 5000 calories a day. I tend to eat a fair amount when I'm hiking, and I get grouchy when I'm hungry, so I figured it would be better to send more food than I might need to MTR; then I'd get a better estimate of calories burned per day while hiking from Tuolumne to Red's to MTR and could leave behind the extra food.

My most significant concern was since my hiking partner and I haven't done a lot of long distance hiking, I wasn't sure what food we'd enjoy on the trail. As a result I tried to make and pack things I thought would be tasty, but might not be as calorie dense. For instance, we have cheese and salami for lunch some days, which isn't as calorie dense, but hummus and olive oil other days.

We're starting July 8th and hiking South from Tuolumne. We plan to exit at Onion Valley after two weeks.

Wow, you're really carrying a lot more calories than I do! Do you have data from previous trips on how much food you actually ate? I just came back from a trip where I packed 2000 calories/day, and I packed out quite a bit of my food. It's true that the JMT will be a big calorie-burning hike. I'm doing it solo, whereas my data from past hikes are mostly from hiking with my daughter, who is not a fast hiker. OTOH, I'm planning on feasting at the resupply points on food that I don't have to carry. Because of the uncertainty in comparing past hikes to this one, I'm thinking of taking maybe 2500-2800 cal/day.

To try to put this on an apples-to-apples basis:

What I usually actually eat on a trip is 2100 cal/day, which, divided by my body weight, is 15 cal/day/lb.

If I take 2650 cal/day on thr JMT, that's 19 cal/day/lb.

If you take 4300 cal/day, that's 27 cal/day/lb.

"For instance, we have cheese and salami for lunch some days, which isn't as calorie dense, but hummus and olive oil other days."
How many cal/g is hummus? My usual high-energy-density staples are nuts and cookies, which are about 5.5-6 cal/g. Yeah, love the cheese and salami!

The less energy dense foods I usually take are jerky, dried fruit, granola, and packaged seafood. On this trip, I'll probably only use the seafood as a resupply-day treat. The fruit and granola are probably helping me to avoid constipation, which I've had problems with in the past while backpacking. I hear a lot of through-hikers bring psyllium (e.g., Metamucil). I've never tried the stuff myself, but it seems like possibly an interesting option if one wants to avoid depending so heavily on fruit and granola for fiber.

BTW, that's a great photo with the frisbee! Do you play ultimate?

Calorie requirements vary by person and the type of hike (e.g. miles, elevation gain, etc.). I don't plan meals by calories at all. I know how much I need to eat, based on the types of food I take. Very unscientific, but it works :)

Nick wrote: "I know how much I need to eat, based on the types of food I take. Very unscientific, but it works :)"
My problem is that unless I count calories, I always end up packing out a ton of food. Maybe you've converged more on a standard menu than I have. I'm still experimenting with new foods, like ghee.

I'm starting the JMT on July 27 and finishing up my resupply buckets/boxes to send next week. This is the first trip I've done where I've paid this much attention to my food.

I looked to Andrew Skurka's organization and ideas about food, mainly because he has already done so much legwork. I found it helpful to have some place to start.

I went to REI, Trader Joe's and a grocery store with a calculator and made a list of high calorie/oz foods. Then I made a list of breakfast, 5 "snacks" throughout the day and dinner. Breakfast is no-cook, but dinner will be freezer-bag style. I tried to get around 3000 calories/day and around 1.3 to 1.5 pounds max.

The only thing I haven't done is try to cram it in the bearvault yet, just waiting to repackage everything until I'm closer to sending the resupply boxes.

Steven, lots of people come up with a food solution that looks good on paper, and the numbers all add up. Then they get about four days out on a long trip and find out that their stomach tells them things that never showed up in the plan. Either you will need more calories or less calories, or you find out that you can't stand oatmeal for every breakfast, or you have a craving for boiled waxed okra. This works out for Skurka because he has walked the walk previously, and he has found out what works and what doesn't, so he has been successful in fine-tuning the plan purely for himself.

–B.G.–

> Maybe you've converged more on a standard menu than I have. I'm still experimenting with new foods, like ghee.

Yeah, I'm not much of an experimenter. Drives my wife nuts. If she tries to give me something new to eat, I don't try it :)

I buy Mountain House, instant oatmeal, ramon, cliff and power bars by the case when they are on sale. I repackage the stuff just prior to a trip. I am sure there are more calorie dense and nutritous food, but for me it is one less thing to worry about. Variety doesn't mean much either. I once ate 12 MH Lasagna dinners in a row.

If my wife would let me, at home I would eat bacon and eggs every morning and a steak with baked potato every night, except for Fridays, which are set aside for pizza.

Bob: I am ONLY taking boiled waxed okra, 1.5 lbs per day! Who wants to share a tent with me?!?!

Seriously though, I have eaten everything on my list. I only meant that Skurka's excel spreadsheets and ideas have me paying a little more attention to what and especially when I eat. I think you're right about not following his methods and selections exactly.

As the duration of your trip increases, you will need to pay more attention to balancing fat, carbs and protein. If you are only out 2-3 days you can get away with darn near anything and make up the difference from body fat and muscle protein. Anything longer than that and you need to start paying attention to getting: 1) adequate calories; 2) adequate protein for tissue repair/maintenance; 3) adequate carbs to support the "burning" of fat. If you don't, performance will suffer and the potential for damaging your body will increase. A fourth consideration, depending on how long between resupply points, is making sure you select food that is compact, or can be made so by compressing, crushing, etc.

"A fourth consideration, depending on how long between resupply points, is making sure you select food that is compact, or can be made so by compressing, crushing, etc."

The positive side effect of crushing is that it often contributes to the food being more digestible. The negative side effect is that the food tends to go stale faster.

For one upcoming trip, I'll have six days for the first food load. Due to some complications, I have to limit myself to 4.5 pounds of food. So, I've already planned with all four of your points. The last thing I have to do is to strip out almost all of the food packaging weight and bulk.

After that first six days, I think a giant pizza will be on the menu.

–B.G.–

"The negative side effect is that the food tends to go stale faster."

That's the tradeoff. I minimize that by rolling up the baggies and squeezing as much air out as I can before sealing. So far I haven't had too much problem with staleness up to 10 days. A technique I haven't tried that might work for stuff stored for a relatively long period at a resupply drop before using: Place the packets of food in a vacuum bag and seal with a vacuum sealer,leaving their zip locs slightly open to get all the air out, before packing them in the drop bucket. They should stay fresh that way until you open them when resupplying. At that point you would completely seal each individual baggie before loading in you food bag/canister.

"After that first six days, I think a giant pizza will be on the menu."

Aren't you forgetting something? ;)

Nutrition is a terrible subject, because it's virtually impossible to get scientifically valid information. Everybody has their own beliefs, which are usually based on some combination of magical thinking and what their mommy told them. For instance, the USDA had just finished drawing up the food pyramid with carbs at the base when a new food fad came along: carbs=evil, protein=good! Now I can't get a salad in a restaurant without slices of meat on it. None of this is based on any credible scientific evidence. So when I look at a post like Tom's first one, I find it very difficult to evaluate whether it's correct or not.

Well, as a Type 1 diabetic who measures his blood sugar four times a day I've been keeping tabs on the differences between eating a lot of carbs and not. A month ago I started seriously cutting back the carbs in my diet to see what happened. I now eat about 150 g of carbs a day, offset by an appropriate amount of fat to get enough calories throughout the day. To my surprise (don't know why nobody told me this at my diabetes clinic here in Japan) my blood sugars have completely normalized and I'm slowly losing the weight I gained from taking a lot of insulin. My insulin intake has also dropped considerably. I hadn't been able to normalize my blood sugars in about 10 of the 13 years I've had diabetes! This is a diabetic's need for controlling eating, but a good diabetic diet is a very healthy diet for non-diabetics. So, just from one person's experience you might say that carbs, taken far in excess, are definitely not good for you.

There is quite a lot of research being done on the effects of carbohydrates, especially by people who study paleonutrition, such as Loren Cordain. In the 1930's Weston Price traveled around the world studying pre-industrial societies and what they ate, to see if he could find a correlation between modern diseases and diet. The theory behind these researchers' studies is that there is a certain evolutionary "blueprint" that we evolved to live with and our optimum nutrition can be found in these early parameters. The best book I've found for explaining in-depth how to approach nutrition and whose guidelines I'm following now, is Mark Sisson's Primal Blueprint. While I disagree with some of his overly simplistic depictions of early human versatility and of how animals hunt and subsist, his recommendations are sensible, easy to follow, and based on a lot of research.

One way to reduce the volume of food is to crush it up in a blender. This turns a big bag of Doritos in to about half of a quart ziploc bag.

This helps a lot as a snack food during the day, when you need variety that isn't more salami and cheese. It will keep you eating if your appetite drops out. Works for Cheezits and Ruffles as well. Haven't tried Ramen or noodle dishes yet though.

To eat, open the bag and pour into your mouth to avoid contamination. Tip: don't inhale. It's not powder, but more like the crumbs at the bottom of the bag.

Also, thin spaghetti is quite space efficient even though sometimes its just over 100 cal/oz. My tip would be to pre-break it in half or whichever length fits in your pot to avoid waste and handling in the field. This also fits sideways in a quart ziploc and packs well. Olive oil and cheese go with and are great by cal/oz and space rubrics.

For ease of use, you may want to pack your bear cans in two layers. Loosely group three days or so on the bottom and the rest on top. Makes for less handling and stuffing later.

Get a few extra granola bars before packing, they can always fill in the cracks. I would highly recommend variety though. Usually by the third one of any kind my brain revolts and it goes to the bottom of the can.

There isn't, but should be something about this in the Wiki. To do later.

"So when I look at a post like Tom's first one, I find it very difficult to evaluate whether it's correct or not."

I didn't conjure this up out of thin air, Ben. It's pretty much in line with what was written by Dr. J. in his food writeup on arctic1000.com for the Arctic1000 expedition, and Kevin Sawchuck in his post on food in the Parcour de Wild writeup last fall. I've been working along the same line of reasoning while trying to refine my own backpacking diet over the last 4 years. A reference volume I found very helpful is "Exercise Physiology, Energy, Nutrition, and Human Performance" by V. Katch, W. McArdle, and F. Katch. It has a lot of very useful information about fat, protein, and carb as sources of energy in performance activities, along with a lot of other information that can safely be ignored for the subject at hand. Maybe it would be helpful to you to go over some of these sources in your quest to evaluate whether or not what I posted has any validity.

"Nutrition is a terrible subject, because it's virtually impossible to get scientifically valid information."

I think some people would argue. A friend of mine teaches college-level nutrition and says that there is plenty of scientifically valid information. You just have to know where to find it.

I've never had a formal nutrition class since I was 14 years old, so I can't answer.

–B.G.–

butaki wrote:
"Well, as a Type 1 diabetic who measures his blood sugar four times a day I've been keeping tabs on the differences between eating a lot of carbs and not. A month ago I started seriously cutting back the carbs in my diet to see what happened. I now eat about 150 g of carbs a day, offset by an appropriate amount of fat to get enough calories throughout the day. To my surprise (don't know why nobody told me this at my diabetes clinic here in Japan) my blood sugars have completely normalized and I'm slowly losing the weight I gained from taking a lot of insulin. My insulin intake has also dropped considerably. I hadn't been able to normalize my blood sugars in about 10 of the 13 years I've had diabetes! This is a diabetic's need for controlling eating, but a good diabetic diet is a very healthy diet for non-diabetics. So, just from one person's experience you might say that carbs, taken far in excess, are definitely not good for you."

In the old days, before insulin, the only known treatment for diabetics (Type 1) was the "ketogenic diet" which was as near carbohydrate free as possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet

Once insulin was made readily available, the "experts" decided that such severe diets were no longer needed, and by using insulin to "cover" the consumption of carbohydrates, diabetics could now be "normal" and eat regular food – and keep injecting themselves with insulin while living "regular" lives. In more modern times, it is "normal" to frequently measure blood sugars to decide how and when to use more insulin. It is also expensive.

The positive effects of blood lipid chemistry from the ketogenic diet have been long known.

But, the "experts" agree that being "normal" and constantly injecting insulin and measuring blood sugar is best.

There is a lot of good material to be had on diet and health, but the typical consumer doesn't want to read much "technical stuff" of any sort.

Keep up the "Ketogenic" diet, and there are books around for you to read, giving the theoretical basis and case histories. It isn't just "one person's experience", there is a long history of the benefits of low carb for type 1 diabetics that goes back nearly a century.

"Steven, lots of people come up with a food solution that looks good on paper, and the numbers all add up. Then they get about four days out on a long trip and find out that their stomach tells them things that never showed up in the plan. Either you will need more calories or less calories, or you find out that you can't stand oatmeal for every breakfast, or you have a craving for boiled waxed okra."

No truer words have been spoken!"

James, thanks for the encouragement and the information. As someone who has had to learn all this completely on my own, with a truly awful support system at the three diabetes clinics I've been to here (Japanese doctors don't believe in explaining things in detail to patients, including not telling cancer victims that they might be close to death), all this is a huge surprise to me, but also a wonderful new discovery that I wish I had known when I was younger, before I became diabetic. I'm shocked now by the amount of carbohydrates I regularly consumed. I want to tell others about how much it could help them, but I think it will mainly fall on deaf ears. I walk into a convenience store now and can barely find anything not steeped in carbohydrates. I wonder if people are aware of just how much of it they eat!

As for what to eat when backpacking that is quite a challenging proposal! And quite scary for a diabetic. I do up the amount of carbohydrates for the strenuous portions of a walk, but to keep the blood sugars steady throughout the day I add quite a lot more fat. During the day I use a homemade concoction made of brown rice syrup (carbohydrates), powdered roasted soy (for protein), and almond butter (fat) ) (I'd like to use unsweetened desiccated coconut if I can find it). It tastes like a mildly sweet goo of peanut butter. I take about two tablespoons every hour, and that is just about the right amount to keep my blood sugars from spiking or plummeting. For meals I tend to follow a Japanese diet, with far less sugar and fresh, pre-chopped vegetables when I can justify the weight. It makes my pack heavy, but the fat also allows me to eat less bulk and to go longer between meals, so it evens out.

I'll go check out the ketogenic diet article, and then see where more research will take me. Thanks!

@Tom: Sorry if my post came off as overly confrontational. A nearby university library has the McArdle book, so I'm going to drive over this afternoon and try to glean some info. For all I know, your post is 100% correct and supported by scientific evidence. The claims that struck me as dubious were these:

"If you are only out 2-3 days you can get away with darn near anything and make up the difference from body fat and muscle protein."
I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that burning muscle only happens in really extreme situations, like ultramarathons, where you abuse your body like hell.

"you need to start paying attention to getting […] adequate carbs to support the "burning" of fat."

Are these two statements supported by the McArdle book?

@ Miguel – congratulations on resolving part of your situation with diet. I think we rely to heavily on drugs to help us stay/get healthy, but of course they are helpful/neccessary at times.

Your mention of the evolutionary "blueprint" and modern foods. Isn't this also Atkin's premise, that process foods are not dialed into our genetic dna? Don't want to start a dieting debate, as I have never needed to go on a diet or lose weight. But my wife tries to remove as much food from my diet, and if I didn't fight her over this, I would never see another steak or hamburge ;)

To me it seems logical, since we evolved from hunters and to some extent gatherers. All this processing and chemicals just cannot be good for us. I am shocked at all the overweight and obese people walking around, especially kids. When I was a kid, very few children were overweight, and now it seems almost the norm.

""If you are only out 2-3 days you can get away with darn near anything and make up the difference from body fat and muscle protein."
I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that burning muscle only happens in really extreme situations, like ultramarathons, where you abuse your body like hell.

"you need to start paying attention to getting […] adequate carbs to support the "burning" of fat."

Are these two statements supported by the McArdle book?"

Ben,

Don't worry about seeming confrontational. It's all part of life in the forums when conducted civilly. You were well within parameters, IMO.

As for the 2 points you bring up: 1) If I understand the physiological processes correctly, muscle will be catabolized to provide a carbohydrate analogue in any situation where you have exhausted your glycogen supply/dietary carb supply and dietary protein supply, and are relying on dietary or body fat to supply energy for an activity. Carbohydrate or a protein derived substitute is a requirement for metabolism of fat in a series of chemical reactions known as the Krebs Cycle. It is condition dependent, rather than time dependent. My original point was that on a 2-3 day trip, even if you exhausted both carbohydrate and dietary protein sources, the amount of muscle protein broken down would likely not be dangerous in most cases. In an extreme endurance event like the Western States this might not be the case, but my context was backpacking which does not place quite the same stresses on the body in the short run. 2) "you need to start paying attention to getting […] adequate carbs to support the "burning" of fat." This is where the length of a backpacking trip starts to be a factor. As the trip lengthens, if you do not have adequate dietary carb and proteinsupply, catabolism of muscle tissue becomes an increasingly serious issue. I had it happen to me on a 16 day trip some years ago.

Both statements are well supported by Katch, McArdle. After you go over some of that material, I would highly recommend searching BPL using "Parcour de Wild" as a search argument. It will reference Kevin Sawchuck's report on his and Dave Chenault's excellent adventure last fall. One of the topics that was addressed was food and some of the logic behind their selections. This will further flesh out your understanding. I'll bet if you PM'ed him he would give you even more data. He's a physician and has an excellent understanding of the subject. The Arctic1000 food section is pretty good, too.

Hi, Tom,

I found the McArdle book at the library, and, as you say, it does support the idea that carbs are required as a "primer" for fat metabolism.

I'm less clear on whether it's likely that someone doing a two-week backpacking trip of, say, 15-20 miles a day will have any realistic chance of breaking down muscle … but I'm prepared to be educated :-)

Ben