Bear Attack at Red River Gorge in Ky

"But this is all probably not something the fanboys should be arguing on BPL forums."

Awe, but this is fun pretending to know something about
things that are enough off topic than many won't
recognize we are not experts. (we hope)

"Regarding range: As Chad alluded to earlier, hundreds of people shoot 1000-yard matches with .223 service rifles every year, and they generally beat the pants off of the .30-caliber guys. Any range limitations that he is citing are references to a RIFLE, the M16, not to the ROUND. And even that can be overcome- thus the service rifle guys."

Here is Washington State, the 223 round is considered so
wimpy it is not allowed for deer hunting.

Both the Army and Marines are changing bullets again for
the 22 cal.

"The military sought to replace current M855 ammo because M855 has not performed adequately in the Afghan theater. Specific complaints include: 1) inability to penetrate vehicle windshields; 2) poor long-range performance; and 3) failure to fragment even in short-range anti-personnel use."

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/06/u-s-army-issues-new-m855a1-ammo-to-troops-in-afghanistan/

"After learning that M855 NATO ammo does not perform well from short-barreled rifles such as the M4 carbine, the U.S. Marine Corps has started issuing a new type of 5.56×45 ammo to its troops in Afghanistan. "

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/06/u-s-army-issues-new-m855a1-ammo-to-troops-in-afghanistan/http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/06/u-s-army-issues-new-m855a1-ammo-to-troops-in-afghanistan/

The Ballistic Coefficient for 22 cal bullets is lower
than the 30's, (under 400 versus 500 BC) so wind would be more of an issue for
the 22 cal bullets. If 22 cal shooters are doing better
in those matches, it must have something to do with
lower recoil tiring them less.

I enjoyed those links, but someone else on this thread seems to believe that if its on the internet, it can't be taken seriously.

RRG is back open but with food storage order issued.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/boone/newsroom/2010_07_01rrgopens.shtml

Bob

"we slept with them (but not in the biblical sense"

Thank God you're a little bit higher "caliber" than .223

Happy 4th everyone!

re: target shooting a 223 at 1000+ yards…

Just because you can HIT something at that range, does not a high-power round make.
A typical 223 bullet has so little energy at that range, it's mimicking the short-range power of a 22 LR, or less.

There are .22x calibers that I would consider borderline "high-power," but the 223 Rem is not one of them.

Isn't this thread about bears?

"Look at the old musketball rounds that were very large caliber but sometimes didn't even have enough velocity to kill."

Not a musket, but similar, a 50 cal sharps rifle.
Shoots over two miles.

http://powderburns.tripod.com/sharps.html

The weapon that did in the buffalo.

"There are .22x calibers that I would consider borderline "high-power," but the 223 Rem is not one of them."

Would you include the .220 Swift?

Oh… I forgot what the thread was about :)

The Red River Gorge area was re-opened today. The bear officials think attacked the hiker was spotted about 17 miles away near a trash dumpster. So it has apparently left the area of the site.

"I have heard plenty of gun fire at RRG (not from me) as near as I can tell it's concentrated around the easy to get to camp sites. Gun fire seems to have decreased significantly over the past few years. The law seems to be cracking down hard at the easy hike camp sites."

So let me get this straight: you go out hiking, go to a camp-site, pitch your tent (or hammock), get settled, relax and enjoy the pine-balmed air – and then your neighbours let loose with semi-automatic weapons?

Welcome to America!

I used to frequent the gorge, never saw bears or bear sign. There are an enormous number of party campers, enforcing and engraining the food storage regs will be tough.

220 swift and 22-250 I'd call borderline…most loads in those calibers are churning out at least 1500 ft-lbs muzzle energy, some more than 1700 ft-lbs, which I'd say is bordering on high-power.

It's all subjective though, like quantifying what qualifies as UL.

The debate about .223 in our current wars in the Middle East and Central Asia center around the very nebulous concept of "knock-down power." The complaint is that someone shot with a .223 fired from the shorter-barreled M4 is not necessarily going to be knocked to the ground immediately. But no one is disputing the .223's ultimate lethality. I sure ain't. But when the guy you just shot is pointing an AK47 at you, one understandably prefers that he fall to the ground in a timely fashion.

But this is a problem with ANY smaller-caliber round. Even one that is radically high-velocity.

And, the problem pretty much doesn't exist if the round is fired from the full-length M16 barrel. That little extra bump in velocity greatly increases the propensity of the m855 to engage in all sorts of interesting tricks with terminal ballistics, among them tumbling in flesh and splitting at the cannelure, then fragmenting. It is actually a rather nasty round- it's just not a big, heavy glob of lead that will knock someone to the ground. Granted, it has less kinetic energy than, say, a .308. But contrary to gun-lore mythology the .223 definitely does NOT just poke small holes in people.

And it is definitely high-velocity.

The US Military has no plans to replace it anytime soon.

A really interesting source is the book "Ballistic, Blast, and Burn Injuries", available from the Borden Institute. I'm not sure if they'll send copies to civilians, but most of the book is online at:

http://www.bordeninstitute.army.mil/published_volumes/conventional_warfare/conventional_warfare.html

Now, all of that said, yes, I'm quite a traditionalist myself. I have a .45, not a 9mm. I prefer shooting the .308 at long ranges as my rare firearms recreation far and above shooting an AR. For that matter, I'll spend my scant range time shooting a Garand or M1903 before an AR. ARs lack the soul possesed by a rifle of iron and wood- if we're talking pure esthetics.

"But when the guy you just shot is pointing an AK47 at you, one understandably prefers that he fall to the ground in a timely fashion."

Hopefully with his AK falling from limp fingers at the same time". ;)