Alcohol burning gives me a sinus headache

I should also mention that burning isopropyl alcohol in this particular stove doesnt work well. As I mentioned, I have tried both 70% isopropyl, which doesnt work at all. Cant get the stove to even light with 70%. With 90% isopropyl alcohol, I can just barely get the stove to light…but its “just barely.” I would not rely on 91% isopropyl in this particular stove, you cant get it to prime and vaporize and light well with isopropyl alcohol.

I havent tried 200 proof Everclear grain alcohol in it yet, I am curious to see if it will burn 200 proof grain alcohol. But Everclear is expensive…might as well just use a canister stove. Plus I dont even know if 200 proof Everclear will work in the Vargo Triad stove.

But the denatured alcohol you buy at paint supply stores or at Wal-Mart…the stuff is like being around a glue factory. I dont like the stuff.

Mr. Ultra-light

It’s what happens when you don’t read the directions. Iso is sooty in any stove and only 90 percent or higher will pretend to work in the Triad. Pure grade grain alcoholfor human consumption is expensive. That’s why most folks use denatured alcohol. Those are your choices if you stick with an alcohol stove. Sorry.

Mister Ultralight – I had the same problem when I first started using an alcohol stove. I would get minor headaches from the denatured alcohol fumes, even before the stove was burning. Luckily, after four or five uses, the headaches simply went away. I’m afraid I can’t come up with a sound scientific explanation for why it might be so, but dont give up yet….theres a fair chance you’ll get past those initial sinus headaches.

-Dave:)

Vick, I did read the instructions when I first got the Vargo and yes, it says to use ONLY denatured alcohol. However I decided to try to use isopropyl alcohol anyway, just out of curiosity.

I read the instructions. My main complaint is the fumes from denatured alcohol. I bet being around fumes from denatured alcohol kills brain cells like crazy. The stuff reminds me of when I drive thru the area of my city that has all the glue factories.

Mr. Ultra-light

I bought the Vargo for the same reasons– tiny, light, nice looking design— but it didn’t work very well. I traded it for other gear.

As to denatured alcohol, it has methanol in it, which is not a friendly chemical, nor is methylethylketone or a number of other chemicals they add. Benzene is basically outlawed, so you shouldn’t see it for sale anywhere. IF you really want to get into this, you can download all kinds of MSDS info on any dentured alcohol sold in the US.

Looking at the Klean Strip S-L-X denatured alcohol MSDS, it lists 45-50% ethyl alcohol, 45-50% methanol, and 1-4% methyl isobutyl ketone. I suspect it’s the methanol fumes that get you. Buddha is everyhwere, but if he is in that mix of chemicals, he ain’t smiling. Reading from http://www.ucc.ie/academic/chem/dolchem/html/comp/methanol.html : “Methanol is a potent nerve poison.” Perhaps there are some fumes from vaporized/unburned methanol? If pure methanol is burned, we should just get CO2 and water, but I can’t tell you what happens when it is mixed with the other stuff. Also, the source listed above mentions that formadelhyde is formed when methanol is oxidized with a catalyst. Perhaps some of the stove alloys allow that to happen? Going by other posts here, maybe the surface layers of the alloys tarnish and the process lessens as the stove is used? I’m in over my head here chemically, so it’s all a wild guess on my part.

The whole idea of “denatured” alcohol is to put poisons in it so you won’t drink it. We’re still dealing with Puritans and prohibition.

It really rubs me raw that we can’t buy purer forms of ethanol. I seriously looked at the prospect of distilling my own. Someone here had mentioned that most of the ethanol we buy is made from petroleum, which really puts me over the edge— we have a huge farming community ready to crank out all we will buy. We are such silly monkeys!

> 200 proof grain alcohol. But Everclear is expensive.

Haven’t ever seen 200-proof grain alcohol, and if you did try it you might lose too much to evaporation over the course of a trip. Everclear 190-proof ethanol burns great, doesn’t give me a headache, can be used as a disinfectant (don’t use methanol for that!), and, well, it can be taken internally ‘for medicinal purposes’ (use 1/3 of the equivalent volume of vodka in a mix–don’t drink it straight unless you want a bad gut-ache).

It is kinda spendy, though.

Hehehe– I think more would “evaporate” into my Gatorade than anything else.

Can’t buy Everclear in Washington as hard liquor is a state monopoly and they won’t bring it in. Darn– I was just in Montana– I’ll bet they sell it there. I’m going back in August :) Either that or find one of those legendary moonshiners in Darrington (a town near the Glacier Peak Wilderness).

Reading directions… sorry, Mr. Ultralight. It just sounded like a guy thing to not read them. Goes along with famous last words, “Hey guys, watch this. Hold my beer.”

I simpathize about the headaches. As Dale said, denatured alcohol contains added ingredients that are highly suspect.

An option may be Sterno liquid. It is denatured by addition of a bittering agent that makes it highly unpleasant tasting. But it burns cleanly. I do not know what the percentage of alcohol to water is. Jelly Sterno is 40% water. Not too efficient. But the liquid may be more concentrated because water must be added to the jelly to make it gell.

Regarding 200 proof and 190 proof. The only way alcohol can get that concentrated is by running it through a drying agent such as silica gell. You can’t distill it much past 120 proof or 60 percent, if I remember my grandfather’s instructions rightly.

Anhydrous alcohol – 200 proof or 100% -is hydroscopic. It absorbs water from the air and gets diluted that way. If I remember right, it will dilute down to about 95 percent alcohol or something like that.

Wow Dale, that is a serious answer you gave me! Hmmmmmmm I dont know what is in that denatured alcohol stuff that makes me feel like Ive been building a model airplane, but something is in it. Your answer sounds right.

I know Everclear woudlnt cause that problem for me. I just wonder if the Triad Vargo stove would work with Everclear, probably not as the manufacturer states to ONLY use denatured alcohol in the stove. I will try the highest proof Everclear I can find in it though, just out of curiosity.

Mister Ultra-light

> 200 proof grain alcohol. But Everclear is expensive.

Haven’t ever seen 200-proof grain alcohol, and if you did try it you might lose too much to evaporation over the course of a trip. Everclear 190-proof ethanol burns great, doesn’t give me a headache, can be used as a disinfectant (don’t use methanol for that!), and, well, it can be taken internally ‘for medicinal purposes’ (use 1/3 of the equivalent volume of vodka in a mix–don’t drink it straight unless you want a bad gut-ache).

It is kinda spendy, though.

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I dont know, I dont drink anymore so I dont know much about Everclear. I was just going by what I read about it, I read somewhere you can get the stuff “200 proof.” Maybe that is wrong. I did read it burns clean but is expensive.

I dont drink anymore, stopped when I was 29. So dipping into my Everclear on a trip wouldnt be a problem.

Last time I think I drank Everclear I was 19 working as a lifeguard at the beach. We had a “lifeguard party” with PJ punch and it had vodka and Everclear thrown in it, along with lots of kool aid and fresh chunks of fruit and Hawaiian punch. That was the drunkest Ive ever been in my entire life. I have no idea what “proof” that Everclear was, I just remember it was Everclear…basically moonshine.

Mister Ultra-light

An option may be Sterno liquid. It is denatured by addition of a bittering agent that makes it highly unpleasant tasting. But it burns cleanly. I do not know what the percentage of alcohol to water is. Jelly Sterno is 40% water. Not too efficient. But the liquid may be more concentrated because water must be added to the jelly to make it gell.

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Hi…

Yeah, Ive used Sterno many times in the past on backpacking trips. Its super cheap, although Ive never been able to use it to get water to an actual boil on all my trips. It will bring water to just almost a boil…like really hot where it starts to bubble and steam, but not a full boil.

Can you get Sterno in liquid form? I bet that would work if it was in liquid form and yes, Sterno never bothered me or gave me a headache before. Ive used it a lot.

Mister Ultra-light

Sterno comes in liquid form – in a squeeze bottle.

Getting water to boil: Back when God was a little girl, they used to include an ultralight stove/pot in air drops to folks who were stranded in the great outdoors. It was a 3 cup aluminum pot with lid and a folding tripod that held a small (2.5 oz) can of Sterno and a 1.25 inch high chimney that fit on top of the sterno can on 3 tabs. The chimney was a little smaller in diameter than the opening of the can, so air entered around the base of the chimney and flame went up the chimney. That puppy would boil water reliably and was my preferred ultralight stove for many years. I used denatured alcohol or liquid sterno in it when the jellied sterno was used up. The liquid sterno seemed to work OK. However, the bittering agent in sterno is very strong and would get on my spoon or in the pot and render any food extremely unpleasant to eat. It should be entirely practical to make a similar chimney from titanium sheet to fit a sterno can. But first, I would try some other stove designs to see how they work with sterno liquid. The Virga stove is not a strong performer. Look at the Zen stove site for models you can make in a few minutes.

Vick, I went looking for Sterno liquid and didn’t find it. I went to http://www.sterno.com and looked through both the consumer and professional pages and got nadda. Perhaps they aren’t making it anymore. The stuff was in an orange bottle, right?

I heard stories from old timers about drunks filtering Sterno through a loaf of bread so they could drink it. Talk about kids huffing glue and paint!

Vick, I went looking for Sterno liquid and didn’t find it. I went to http://www.sterno.com and looked through both the consumer and professional pages and got nadda. Perhaps they aren’t making it anymore. The stuff was in an orange bottle, right?

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Yeah…same here. I have used Sterno for years along with cannister stoves…and never even heard of liquid sterno before. Thats why I was kind of surprised when I read about liquid Sterno. I was like “they really make liquid Sterno? WHERE? I want some of that.

I did the same thing, went to the Sterno website last night and couldnt find any liquid form of Sterno. Just the usual canned “jelly” form of Sterno that I am familiar with.

Hmmmmmmmm maybe that would be a good thing to manufacture and market to ultra-light backpackers? Liquid sterno for your stove…cleaner and healthier than denatured alcohol…same basic results.

<evil grin $$$$>

>I heard stories from old timers about drunks filtering Sterno through a loaf of bread so they could drink it. Talk about kids huffing glue and paint!

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Same here, I have heard of those stories about Sterno since my early Scouting days. I cant imagine drinking that stuff…it would be like drinking embalming fluid or something.

I first learned about Sterno from my dad, when I first got into Scouting years ago. Many a fifty milers in the winter I got by with Sterno…but it doesnt get the water to a boil…only to a real hot “border-line boil.” Maybe a liquid form of the Sterno in a alcohol stove with jets or sideburners would bring 2 cups of water to a rolling boil?

Mister Ultra-light

I guess they don’t make it anymore. Even the small cans are hard to find. I haven’t used it for years because it is or was more expensive than denatured. Another one bits the dust.

Regarding boiling, the only successful sterno boiler I ever saw is the one I described with the chimney. That really works.

>I just wonder if the Triad Vargo stove would work with Everclear, probably not as the manufacturer states to ONLY use denatured alcohol in the stove.

It should work just fine because Everclear is 95% ethanol, and many denatured alcohols are 50%-90% ethanol by volume, the rest being methanol, for a total of 95% alcohol. Ethanol has a slightly higher energy content than methanol. (Methanol may have the edge at near-freezing temps, but I haven’t looked into that too much.)

The “only denatured alcohol” warning is there to keep people from expecting the stove to work with 70% isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol). I use S-L-X brand denatured alcohol for stove testing, but I use Everclear in the field. I’ve never noticed any difference.

I ran across this Wikipedia article– interesting suff:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol

Here’s a real eye-popper about Henry Ford and alcohol as a fuel source:

http://www.runet.edu/~wkovarik/papers/fuel.html

good price on everclear 190 750ml
@
http://www.winechateau.com/vsku1004371.html

if you get a case it will cost just over $15 a bottle shipped.

For a comprehensive review of alcohol stove fuels (including toxicity issues), you might want to check out the updated Super Cat stove article that can be found here. Just click on the “Super Cat Fuels” link near the top of the article to skip directly to that discussion.

On another matter, most reviews of the Vargo Ti stove have not been very good. My theory about its poor performance has to do with both the type and the thickness of the metal (titanium) used in its construction.

Alcohol stoves need to efficiently “feed back” some of the heat they generate into the alcohol pool in order to keep the fuel boiling (and vaporizing) well. The very thin aluminum that’s used in Pepsi can models (as well as the Super Cat alcohol stove) works great for this purpose. Titanium sheet, however, does not conduct heat as efficiently as aluminum, which makes maintaining a fuel boil more difficult, especially in cold weather.

At the request of some users, I had considered offering a commercial titanium version of the Super Cat, but ultimately decided against it because it probably wouldn’t work very well.

Hi Jim,

>For a comprehensive review of alcohol stove fuels (including toxicity issues), you might want to check out the updated Super Cat stove article that can be found here. Just click on the "Super Cat Fuels" link near the top of the article to skip directly to that discussion.

Thanks for the link to your Super Cat alcohol stove article, I have had a quick read through and found it very interesting, I will read the whole document this weekend.

Roger Caffin and I are putting the finishing touches to two articles, water/alcohol mixtures and alcohols mixtures which will be published soon on BPL I think you will find them interesting.

>On another matter, most reviews of the Vargo Ti stove have not been very good. My theory about its poor performance has to do with both the type and the thickness of the metal (titanium) used in its construction.

I agree with you that the thermal conductivity and mass of an alcohol stove material is very important, with my Volcano stove I use a small aluminum rod that is heated by the flame and transfers heat back into the fuel, I can vary the mass of this rod and therefore the flame strength and efficiency.

Tony

Saw it at Lowe's and found the MSDS.

http://www.kleanstripgreen.com/

look under denatured alcohol.

Up to 100% ethanol.

> Up to 100% ethanol.

Well, it could hardly be over 100% ethanol, now could it???

The trouble with quoting a spec in that manner is that it is absolutely meaningless. Suppose it was 50% ethanol and 50% highly carcinogenic benzene – it would still meet that spec. One needs to quote the limits on the impurities.

What the MSDS actually says is that it can contain up to 10% Methyl isobutyl ketone, and that can be a bit nasty.

Cheers

How does less than 10% compare to others?

Headache could be caused by carbon monoxide that these stoves emit when burning. If that's the case, use better ventilation or a canister stove (lower CO).

If the stove is new there may be something on it from the manufacturing process that needs to burn off. This could possibly give you a headache, but would burn off after a while (let the stove burn a couple of loads of fuel and stand well away from it).

An ingredient other than alcohol may be causing your problem (Methyl isobutyl ketone is common in denatured alcohol).

Try pure methanol (HEET FUEL-LINE ANTIFREEZE in YELLOW bottle). If that bothers you then try 190 proof Everclear (ethanol). If that bothers you use a canister stove.