Topic

Maximizing weight saveing versus cost

  • This topic is empty.
Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 27 total)
PostedMay 24, 2010 at 12:37 pm

Hi,

I'm trying to make the transition to UL, or semi-UL in time for a backpacking trip in early August. My gear is mostly 15 years old, so I am pretty much starting from scratch, with the exception of a backpack and some polypro underwear.

In looking at the gear lists and reviews, I'm rather put off by the cost. For instance, the mummy bag review article was fascinating, but the author had on at $300 of down clothing while sleeping, allowing him to look at lighter bags. While this may be the ideal, I need to compromise and, say, get a warmer 20 deg bag rather than a 35 deg bag, since I can't afford both a new bag and a set of down clothes.

I'm curious what recommendations you all might have for going to UL, but doing it rather frugally.

Here's what I have:
1) Rainshadow 2 tent
2) backpack (not UL, but probably won't replace for this time).
3) nice lightweight waterproof jacket.
4) I will probably buy a new down sleeping bag.

How can I fill out the rest of my gear list (for 2-1/2 season mountain weather–down to about 20 degres min temp) without dropping $2000? What could I reasonably expect to get on the used gear forum? Does anyone have any good compromises they'd recommend?

PostedMay 24, 2010 at 12:44 pm

If you allow yourself an extra oz or two on say a down jacket, you'll find it can get pretty cheap.. esp. if you look around for bargains.

For eg: the Fugu Down Jacket is / was only $120.. probably the warmest jacket around. I've found down jackets for $50 on Steep and Cheap that weigh 10 oz while something as warm for $150 might weigh 8 oz.

The best way is to buy gear used on Gear Swap here.. (or on Geartrade). Better for the environment. Better for your wallet. For eg: I see a slightly used Kelty 2 person tent on Geartrade, weighing in at 3 lbs 10 oz for $123. People usually pay over $300 for that weight. Many deals on sleeping bags there too..

The particular brands and pieces people discuss here are expensive but there are MUCH cheaper but similar products for a couple of oz more (maybe some other compromises as well). I find this to be particularly the case for sleeping bags.. you can set yourself maximum $/oz limit you are willing to spend to get lighter gear.

PostedMay 24, 2010 at 12:49 pm

Do you think I can find pretty much anything I need on the Gear Swap? I'd been looking a bit, and got the feeling that I shouldn't plan on finding everything I need via that method, and was hoping an expert here could suggest what 2nd hand gear I'd be most likely to find successfully.

PostedMay 24, 2010 at 12:58 pm

no expert but I've been looking at at gear swap for a month or two closely now and the most common things I see are 1. clothing 2. tent/tarps 3. backpacks 4. misc gear like cooking kits etc.. sleeping bags are perhaps less common.

Whiteblaze seems to have a forum for used gear as well but I've never bought anything there (yet).

Do checkout Geartrade.com .. new stuff appears all the time and it's a front for backcountry.com – a pretty good store.

PostedMay 24, 2010 at 1:26 pm

If you really want to save money and ounces, I really think you have to make your own gear. That said, I haven't made a single thing that I use, not even my ground sheet.

Yes, you can buy pretty much everything you need on Gear Swap. Actually, the only thing I know I haven't seen there yet is cuben fiber quilts.

Tad Englund BPL Member
PostedMay 24, 2010 at 1:35 pm

Derek, welcome and yes you can get were you want to be and at a reasonable cost.
The key to this whole lightweight thing is to jump in with both feet, don’t try and do it with one foot still one the old path.

There are a number of ways to achieve these:

1. buy your way there- you already said this is not an option (most people can’t do this either).

2. Shop diligently, watch Gear Swap, Craigslist, Geartrade,REI Garage sales and many others. You have to know what you are looking for so do your research and be patient, this does take time.

3. Make some of your own stuff, like a quilt or a tarp, or a jacket, research this site for articles on how to do this- I’d wait on the backpack until you get your weight down.

4. Use number 2 and 3 above and also make some trade-offs. Like with a sleeping bag, you can get an expensive one or pick up a REI Sub-Zero for around $100 on sell (this is an old model) here is an example from the gear forum Sub Zero a bag like this will work, maybe a few oz heavier but still a good bag for the money.
You can do this with just about anything. There was a 4 oz wind shirt for $40 on the gear swap last week, a good buy for someone who doesn’t have one.
Watch for tents/tarps or Backpacks (you need to re-think keeping your old backpack). As everyone says start with your big three (shelter, sleeping, backpack). My big three use to be 16 lbs combined. Now they are at around 40 oz. depending on where and when I’m going.
Keep a look out and have your money ready when you find something. The deals are there, you just have to do the research to find them, and make trade-offs to get where you want to be.
Also, if you get something that might not be exactly what you want- use it until you find what you really want and then sell the old item here to recoup some of your costs. That is what makes the gear forum work. The stuff I started out with as a ul’er is totally different then what I have now.

Jeff M. BPL Member
PostedMay 24, 2010 at 1:48 pm

As someone who just converted to lightweight, I can tell you that it can be done without breaking the bank. The trick really is figuring out what piece of gear you want and then looking for deals. Gear trade is great. I just bought gloves for $40 that normally retail for $99. Little things like that add up. A good down sleeping bag you can usually find at a lower price is the sierra designs nitro 30. BPL did a review on it that you can check out. Feel free to PM me with any questions you might have.

Roger Caffin BPL Member
PostedMay 24, 2010 at 5:54 pm

There's an awful lot of stuff going through Gear Swap!

Recommendation: leave changing your pack until the VERY last. Only do so when you know what volume you are likely to need.

Cheers

PostedMay 24, 2010 at 8:28 pm

You're right, down clothing IS expensive.

A great alternative for mid-layer warmth is to head on down to the thrift stores/Goodwill and look for a (hooded) fleece, or a light sweater made of Alpaca or cashmere. They are *bulkier* than down, but not too much heavier, per warmth.

I am not sure how to choose a fleece that is warmest per weight. Some of the new fleeces are better than the old, heavier fleeces on that count, apparently. Maybe someone here can suggest how to tell.

Elizabeth

Mary D BPL Member
PostedMay 25, 2010 at 12:46 am

If you're getting thrift store fleece, be sure to hold it up to the light to look for thin spots. You don't want it if you can see the light through it! Fleece may be a lot bulkier and a little heavier, but it can be just as warm and is certainly a far better choice for the low budget crowd! There is so much fleece available that I definitely would hit the low budget or thrift stores rather than the expensive stuff in REI.

I personally prefer two thinner insulating layers to one thick one so I can more carefully regulate my body temperature in varying conditions. I use a Montbell UL Thermawrap (discontinued color bought on sale) plus a 100-weight fleece vest. No reason why you couldn't do the same with a 200-weight fleece jacket, a 100-weight fleece vest and a light nylon windbreaker.

A simple inexpensive unlined light and thin nylon windbreaker can substitute perfectly well for a pricey lightweight wind shirt. It might be an ounce or two heavier but it will work just fine. It's cheaper and more versatile than the expensive "windproof" fleece. So many of these cheap windbreakers have a flannel lining (often cotton) that you may need to cut out the lining to make it work (sometimes all you need for warmth while hiking is that thin nylon layer to keep the worst of the wind off). Be sure the windbreaker is big enough to layer over the fleece! (Your rain jacket should be big enough to layer over both in case of really cold, wet, windy weather.) Again, you may luck out and find a windbreaker in the thrift store.

Check the athletic departments of big-box stores like KMart, Target, Wallyworld, Costco. Nylon track pants and shorts, wicking baselayer shirts, etc., far cheaper than in places like REI. I've been told that Costco is a great place for merino wool socks! Watch for sales!

One low budget item that I used was the $5-6 KMart aluminum grease pot for cooking. While they eventually get too dented and last only a couple of years, you can buy many years' supply of them for the price of one titanium pot that won't be much lighter.

For your pack, consider doing a little butchery (or, as a poster on another forum suggested, "Backpacks Updated Through Creative High End Remodeling") with a seam ripper and scissors to remove unneeded gewgaws, the lid, etc. You might get as much as a pound off it, and (assuming the pack is comfortable for you) will save a lot of money over buying a new pack! If you're shortening shoulder straps or waist belt, though, be sure to leave them long enough that the pack fits over all your warm clothing!

Watch for used gear, here and on other forums as well as the inevitable EBay. Of course it's caveat emptor (buyer beware). Use your credit card (more protection for you) if you can–but don't buy more at a time than you can pay off within the grace period to avoid interest charges.

The one item I'd splurge on, if you can, is a really good and accurately rated down sleeping bag, such as one from Western Mountaineering. If you can't do this, consider the Campmor down bag, although it's more nearly a 30* F bag than its advertised 20*F. At least it is reasonably light and won't set you back big bucks. Hopefully in another 5-10 years you'll have saved enough pennies for that WM/Feathered Friends/Montbell/Nunatak bag!

Watch outlet sites like Sierra Trading Post, backcountry.com's outlet, and altrec.com's outlet. The last two often have 20% off coupons on their regularly priced stuff, as does REI (except for REI you have to be a member). I haven't tried moosejaw.com and have heard both good and bad things. By googling items regularly you can often do comparative online shopping and find the best price. Some (not all) of the "cottage manufacturers" like Six Moon Designs and Tarptent have year-end sales.

The main thing is not to be in too much of a hurry so you can find the best bargains. So what if you have to use the older heavier gear for a while, just take shorter trips. Work at eliminating unnecessary duplication of items (like several changes of clothes, socks of course excepted)–this may be whittling ounces rather than pounds, but it all helps. Make sure each new piece of gear is what you want before spending the money. Once you've bought it, try it at home to make sure it works and, if not, be sure to send it back within the time limits and other conditions (like the tags still on) of the vendor you bought it from.

Sometimes you have to suck up the extra shipping cost for returns of items bought online. That's far better than being stuck with something you don't want, though!

You might want to look at some of the articles and gear lists for Scouts listed on this site; that may help your budget, too!

Set up a spreadsheet of your gear with weights. Your first investment should be a digital postage scale that weighs to the nearest 0.l ounce. The spreadsheet also doubles as a checklist when you go on trips. Its primary purpose, though, is to check on the weight of each item so you can instantly determine the effect on the total. Remember, though, that manufacturers' weights are often overstated. I take my scale with me when I go shopping, (to the horror of clerks at REI).

Stuart R BPL Member
PostedMay 25, 2010 at 1:20 am

> Here's what I have:
> 1) Rainshadow 2 tent
> 2) backpack (not UL, but probably won't replace for this time).
> 3) nice lightweight waterproof jacket.
> 4) I will probably buy a new down sleeping bag

What more do you need?

The easiest way to go UL is to take less gear, not just take lighter-but-more-expensive versions of standard gear.
It's an attitude – can I safely do without xxx? and a learning process – enjoy the journey.

PostedMay 25, 2010 at 5:22 am

Hi Stuart,

It's 39F here at 5000' elevation, so if I was camping at 10,000', using 5F/1000', it would be about 14F. So I definitely need some clothes. I have polypro underwear, and a top shell, but that's it. I need presumably a 300 wt fleece or equivalent, and perhaps a warm layer for my legs, along with something wind and waterproof (tyvec pants?).

PostedMay 25, 2010 at 8:25 am

There are a lot of threads on here comparing the different types of insulation and it definitely sounds like you should look into those threads. If you're needing a 20 degree bag then you'll probably be carrying some form of wearable insulation anyway and what your carrying is what you'll wear to bring the usable rating of a 30 degree bag on down. It doesn't have to be down insulation to be effective and some people choose synthetic insulating clothing since it's more likely to get wet and/or as a bit of a safety net in case their down bag gets wet. Maybe not necessary but something to consider nonetheless.

You can catch Polartec 300 fleeces for good prices at Cabelas at times. Pair it with a windshirt (you can find these on sale for under $50 if you aren't picky and shop around) and maybe another light insulation layer and you should be good. That may be too much insulation really but I'm not up on all the cold weather stuff being from Texas and all. The point is the same however.

Randy Nelson BPL Member
PostedMay 25, 2010 at 9:40 am

I'm also just going lighter (not UL) and have learned a ton reading here. As far as the temperature goes the 5 degrees per 1000 feet seems a little too much. My house is 3400' higher than Denver and it's usually 10 degrees cooler here. Plus it's going to be significantly warmer in August. I don't like to sleep with a lot of layers. So I have a 20 degree bag which works for me. Can always put on the poly pros if I'm not warm enough. But I could easily get by with a cooler bag if I wanted to layer up a bit. And I'm not talking $300 worth of down clothes.

Not sure where you are up north but in Denver there are great thrift stores like Savers where you can pick up fleece at great prices. I don't know how to determine weights but I've gotten a variety. And most stuff they sell is hardly used. I've bought stuff with the original tags on it! Expect to pay about $5 for a fleece shirt or jacket. Can't beat it.

PostedMay 25, 2010 at 10:45 am

I find sleeping in a lot of layers tends to be uncomfortable as well. A base layer and a fleece of some sort is really comfortable to me. So I guess that would be 2 layers inside a bag. I find a third or middle layer bunches up and gets uncomfortable and is hard to adjust between the other layers without waking up completely. This is mostly in the arm area though and I haven't tried a vest as a middle layer yet.

Another option is to add a bivy to the system or in a pinch you could put your rain jacket over the torso area of the bag. If at all possible I prefer to tuck at least one side of the garment under the pad.

PostedMay 28, 2010 at 1:04 pm

Randy, I figured based on the lapse rate of dry air, the rate at which unmoving dry air cools with elevation is about 5.2F/1000 ft.

On the other hand, the elevation difference between here in Fort Collins, and Estes Park is 2522', but the difference in mean temperature is only 5 degrees.

So perhaps it is best to figure 5 deg/1000 ft a likely maximum elevation effect.

CW BPL Member
PostedMay 28, 2010 at 1:06 pm

Temp drop with elevation is typically 2-3 degrees per 1000 feet.

PostedMay 28, 2010 at 1:16 pm

Thanks all for your thoughts. I ended up getting a go-lite 20F quilt for sleeping. (http://www.moosejaw.com/moosejaw/shop/product_GoLite-UltraLite-3-Season-Quilt-Sleeping-Bag_10093580____?cm_mmc=CSE-_-GoogleBase-_-na-_-GoLite-UltraLite-3-Season-Quilt-Sleeping-Bag&ad_id=GoogleBase(

It was just to cheap to pass up, but I gather it's about equivalent to a 30F bag. So I'll have to start looking for some warm sleeping clothes. And I still hope to move beyond my old thermarest pad. I think I'm a little paranoid because my last few summer backpacking trips all ran into significant cold weather.

If anyone is reading this, I'd love to see what you think of this set of clothes for a North Cascades trip. I'm figuring a minimum temp of about 32F. I don't have weights on these yet because I don't own many of them, but hope to soon.

2 lightweight long sleeve polypro tops
1 300 wt. fleece
1 waterproof jacket
1 lightweight long underwear bottom
1 pair nylon hiking pants, convertable to shorts
1 pair of rainpants.

Since I only have the polypro right now, what would you do differently?

PostedMay 28, 2010 at 1:22 pm

Hi Chris,

But there's a 12 degree temperature drop from Loveland, CO to Estes Park right now. 12 deg/2522ft elevation = 4.8 deg/1000'.

I'm speaking in ignorance, but I'd still tend to believe the dry adiabatic lapse rate is a good rule of thumb when you don't have clouds forming.

CW BPL Member
PostedMay 28, 2010 at 1:29 pm

There will always be outliers.

Ex. my home town is at 1150 ft and it's 91.6 but about 1.5 hours north at 1978 ft it's 65.2

That's around 32 degrees per thousand feet. Skews the margin way off to one side.

PostedMay 28, 2010 at 1:38 pm

Hi Chris,

I think what you are observing is two different masses of air. The lapse rate should tell you what will happen if you take the air in front of you and raise or lower it.

CW BPL Member
PostedMay 28, 2010 at 1:44 pm

The temperature drop with height (called lapse rate
by meteorologists) is 6.5 degrees Celsius per 1000 meters (not feet)
or, in English units, it is 3.57 degrees Fahrenheit per 1000 feet.

David R. Cook
Atmospheric Research Section
Environmental Research Division
Argonne National Laboratory

This works for me.

PostedMay 28, 2010 at 1:55 pm

Hi Chris,

Enjoying your comments…

I used the value in wikipedia of 9.8C/1000m. I may be doing my unit conversion wrong but here's what I get

(9.8C/1000m)*(9F/5C)*(1609m/1mi)*(1mi/5280ft)*1000 = ~5F/1000 ft.

That said, this site: http://www.enotes.com/earth-science/atmospheric-lapse-rate

suggests the average lapse rate (presumably also accounting for condensation) is 3.5F/1000 ft, which sounds a lot like what you are saying!

Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 27 total)
Loading...