is gore-tex safe?

Don’t know about the study you were referring to. Heard a year or two ago about teflon coated non-stick cookware being a problem. Ingestion is how it gets into the body in this case.

To add a new log to your silly science do you know how Gore-Tex is used in the dental industry?

You do know, of course, that eVENT uses a PFTE membrane, as well?

Perhaps you could post a link to the study?

Bill, good point. wish i had thought to mention it.

i carry small round metal containers with Glide (PFTE) dental floss in my pack. I figure if i decide to eat it, i deserve whatever dread disease i get.

i bet the Canadian study with children is the same that was on the news here a year or two ago – ingestion is the problem.

My best guess. My two cents.

So, no chewing on your hardshell sleeves. Nasty habit, anyway.

Wreaks havoc with the WP properties, i understand.

this is the article i read…

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060601.wchemkids0601/BNStory/specialScienceandHealth/home

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The adults were contaminated by 32 chemicals, and had higher concentrations of some products no longer in use, such as DDT and PCBs.

The children, however, had higher levels of newer chemicals such as brominated flame retardants (PBDEs) and perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA), which is used in stain repellants and non-stick coatings [ including waterproof breathables like gore-tex, i believe ].

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the issue came to mind as my old gore-tex jacket needs replacing. (yes, kevin, i know e-vent has teflon. that’s why i’m asking the question.)

history has shown that the epa isn’t infallible and that big companies aren’t always honest. all i’m asking is whether anybody else is worried about this, whether they’ve any additional information.

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i bet the Canadian study with children is the same that was on the news here a year or two ago – ingestion is the problem.

My best guess. My two cents.

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my best guess too, paul, but it’s still a layman’s guess and sometimes somethings shouldn’t be left to guesswork. just wondering if anybody knows anything else.

Channing, you’re absolutely right, “somethings shouldn’t be left to guesswork”. i don’t know anything beyond what i read in the news. At this point, i’m personally not too concerned about it in clothing.

This past Friday I had what I think will be the last surgery to address Radiation side effects that killed the cancer I had. Dental surgery on my lower jaw bone. I have been in my Dental teams examination room a bunch over the last couple of months and looking around at the labels on drawers etc I see this “Gore-Tex” label.
Gore-Tex has some great products beside what we normally think about

My interest was in what they call

“Guided Tissue Regeneration Therapy”products.

Lucky for me I didn’t need any of these products but I am really glad something like this is available to those who do or if I need them in the future.

Isn’t the PTFE membrane sandwiched between a face fabric and wicking fabric? Since PTFE is a solid and NOT a gas you would have to inhale against the fabric pretty hard to get some aerosols into yourself.

My take, for their intended applications PTFE is worse for your car engines (Slick 50, Duralube etc through potential oil starvation) than it is for you when used in WB rain gear (wearing an encased solid matrix).

Thanks Bill. Good info. Very interesting.

From what I can gather, here’s how it breaks down:

Perflouroctanoic acid (PFOA) is a fluorinated 8-carbon fatty-acid analog that seems to be fairly nasty. It accumulates in tissues and has been shown to be carcinogenic in rats, and so has recently been promoted to “suspected carcinogen in humans” by the FDA. It is used in the manufacture of PTFE, but is completely removed from the final product. Where it becomes a problem is in: 1. Exposure of workers at plants where PFOA is used, and 2. Contamination of ground water, etc. near such plants, and 3. Its persistence in the environment. Hence the EPA involvement.

Polytetraflouroethane (PTFE) aka Teflon/gore-tex/eVENT is pretty inert (the property that makes it so useful). It is used all over the medical and pharmaceutical industries for this reason as well. If PFOA contamination from PTFE under normal (low-temp, mild pH, aqueous solutions) conditions were an issue, it seems that it wouldn’t be so popular for processing high-purity injectables.

Now, it seems that under some conditions (primarily high temperatures) PTFE and similar flouropolymers can break down into PFOA and similiar compounds (a la the woman who left an empty teflon pot on the stove and killed all her birds). Apparently flouropolymers in microwave popcorn bags undergo such a reaction, driving PFOA into the popcorn and accounting for 30% of the PFOA levels found in adults. The other 70% of PFOA in adults is then presumably from environmental sources, unless there are other ways to get PFOA from PTFE besides heat.

This is where the story gets fuzzy. A more verbose explanation of the reaction mechanisms would be helpful here. Are there any mechanisms besides pyrolysis? Any chemists familiar with this, or up for a literature search?

So, based on a preliminary understanding, to avoid PFOA exposure:

-Don’t eat microwave popcorn (bummer)
-Don’t leave teflon pans unattended
-Don’t throw your $200 rainjacket in the campfire.

Great info Dylan. Many thanks.

excellent! thank you.

i hear that id is coming out with 2 new e-vent jackets. anybody with information on these? :)

Channing, I’d be interested to hear about any new Event jackets. It might be beneficial to repost your question as a new topic.

> Isn’t the PTFE membrane sandwiched between a face fabric and wicking fabric?

Gore’s hidden secret, which they try VERY hard to conceal, is that the PTFE layer does not do the work any more. It supports a very thin layer of polyurethane (PU), and that is what does the W/B work.
They talk about adding a special layer to block oils. What that means is that body oils and sweat ruins the W/B efefct of Teflon, so that the original pure-PTFE membrane failed in the field. What you get today is GoreTex II.

OK, their PU layer is pretty thin and breathes a little better, but don’t believe it is magic compared to cheaper PU/nylon jackets. Marketing, marketing … And YOUR dollars.
Cheers

Roger–that’s a pretty iconoclastic assessment of Gore-tex. Can you back that up?

Not that I’m a big PFTE in my hardshell fan—Gore-tex and eVENT( another overhyped material) are not magic bullets. I do find that for me, they work noticably better than the cheap w/b PU materials( precip and the like). But at the end of a hard slog uphill in wet weather, things are rather steamy under my shell. I often resort to a softshell in all but torrential conditions.

Looks like PFOA is another one of those “better living through chemistry” miracles that’s going the way of the two-stroke motor. Get yer eVent while you can…

http://www.alternet.org/envirohealth/31995/

Kevin: you’re not kidding. “Waterproof breathable” is an utter oxymoron and it drives me nuts. And eVent is neither of those things! I’ve wetted out my brand new Montane eVent jacket from the outside and from the inside on different occasions: waterproof it ain’t and I’d like to meet the guy who first associated that stuff with the verb “breathing”.