Merino layers vs fluffy jackets

i believe the proper term is Puffy ;P

Heres a link to Richards warmth testing
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=18950

WIth out getting too heavy into details, a 11-12 ounce 800 fill down puffy will be warmer than any 11-12 ounce merino top

I'm a avg sleeper…maybe leaning more towards the cold side. I find myself able to idle 40 degree temps with my 12 ounce down sweater, and a t-shirt. Around freezing I need to supplement with a thicker base layer. I have an icebreaker 260 as well…its a good baselayer for hiking in when temps are above freezing, but because it cost so much in time and money to hand wash wool, ive moved on to a patagonia r1 as my winter baselayer. If your lady always sleeps cold, then shell probably require the heavier merino underneath a puffy. I don't think i can idle and do camp chores below 40 degrees, in just my 260 merino top. A lot of it is trial and error and depends largely on what else is in your system (ie what bag/quilt u have etc), because when you pack these insulating layers you are thinking about 2 things. 1) what you are gonna wear during idle time in camp, and 2) how the same garments will supplement your sleep system. My most recent winter hike had around a 35 degree day, and 24 degree night. I was able to hike fine with a 140 weight base Tee, and a Patagonia R1 over that. When i got to camp and idled, and definitely needed to wear my puffy. I wore my puffy over my r1, and over my 140 base tee, but again, I would have been fine if I wore the puffy over just the 140 base tee

Not sure about the wool weight of the Hooded baselayer you bought, but I think its worth keeping around because of the hood. Keep the 260 as well. I think you should drop the Dakine one. And shop around for a down sweater on sale. I think firstascent by eddie bauer is having sales on them right now (at least for the mens). Other good 10-12 ounce puffys are the patagonia down sweater, mountain hardwear nitrous, Rab microlight, montbell down inner parka

“the poster who has posted in great detail about the layering and warmth of various jackets etc”

this can only be richard nisley. he has posted a whole lot of theoretical knowledge about warmth on this site.
let me try to summarize it a bit (please feel free to correct me if i’m wrong somewhere):
– the average male sitting still (MET=1, see http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/met-metabolic-rate-d_733.html) needs about 4.5 clo to be comfortably warm at 35°F when protected from the wind. (see
post 1 below)
– clo is a measurement of thermal resistence (=warmth) of clothings.
– you can find samples of clo values in post 2
– additional clo values of jackets are in post 3
– clo values of layers add up
– clo values of common insulating materials are listed in post 1 as well.
– to calculate the theoretical clo of an item, find out the oz/sqyrd of the item’s insulation. multiply this number with the material’s clo value and then multiply this product by the percentage of your body’s surface area this item covers. percentages of body surface area of garnments can be found in post 1 as well

Back in the old days when I was a poor young backpacker and down jackets were insanely expensive, I used the following laying system in winter.

String vest. – This created air pockets under next layer up, and cushioned pack straps a bit (heavy packs in those days).
Loose knit lambswool jersey. – light, packed small, and cheap.
Close weave wool shirt. – Wind resistant, warm, and big breast pockets for stuff. Also very rip resistant compared to light nylon shelled gear. Great for cragging about in.
Synthetic hollofill jacket. – Affordable insulation for standing around in camp. In fine cold weather I'd leave this at home and wrap my down bag around myself instead.

These days, as a poor old backpacker, my laying system in winter consists of the same string vest, a very nice close knit light merino jersey bought from a charity shop for £5, a lightweight close weave windproof polyester shirt with big breast pockets for stuff, and a second hand Montbell Ul down inner parka which goes over the shirt at rest stops, and under the shirt near camp fires.

My one luxury item is my Western Mountaineering Ultralite sleeping bag, which is great for wearing round the shoulders when camp fires are not an option.

I like lightweight merino as a base layer — 150-wt or so. I do own a 260-wt Icebreaker top, and it is far too heavy for hiking (too hot) and not at all warm enough for when I stop. So I wear it when I'm out doing less active things in cold weather. (Some people in colder climates may disagree with this.)

There are plenty of choices in the 12-ounce down jacket range. I happen to own a Patagonia pullover hoodie which I got on an insane sale, but if I had to buy something right now it would be the Montbell Alpine Light Parka. Layered over a light merino baselayer this would keep me warm around camp down to freezing or lower.

+1 on the MontBell Alpine light jacket plus light Merino wool. I have Icebreakers and Ibex, I prefer the Ibex base layer for comfort next to skin, but wear the Icebreaker tech T 140 for hiking in.

12 oz wool vs. 12 oz down, the down piece will be "immeasurably" warmer.

However, my standard 3-season layers are a 150-ish weight wool, a 260-ish weight wool, and a puffy down vest.

I like the midlayer for more sedentary activity, such as moving around camp, getting dinner going, etc. The down piece goes on as the night cools or when morning arrives. In the am, the down piece gets packed first, and I usually take the midlayer off right before I hit the trail.

Check out the Western Mountaineering Flight vest, around 6 oz for a ton of warmth.

> These days, as a poor old backpacker, my laying system in winter consists of the same string vest

What do you lay? Eggs?

Cheers

I have a full range of merino tops and always carry two, one heavier than the other. I can then match the weather by wearing the light one, then step up to the heavier one, and finally wear both as the temperature calls for.

I know that this isn't the lightest weight to warmth ratio, a puffy can't be beat for that, but it's the most comfortable for me. I sweat a LOT, no matter what the weather is like, it's just a result of exertion. A wet merino top is a lot more comfortable to me than a wet puffy top.

But that's just me. Each must figure out what works best for them.

In temps of 30-40 degrees, I personally go with a lightweight icebreaker (typically short sleeve, 150 weight) with a Montbell Thermawrap jacket and my shell for keeping the wind out and my heat in. These three layers are all super light and I can start to strip layers off once I get moving.

A 10-11 ounce mid-weight merino would be a little on the heavy side for me as it would be too hot once I started hiking. But if it's for the lady and she's cold-natured it might be about right.

The wet winters around here surely have put me into the midweight icebreaker gear as an active base or mid layer. That wool is just too hard to beat when its soaked.

No time for love with the puffy coats most of the time.

Jack

Whether it is wool or polyester, that first layer is going to (hopefully) move moisture out and away from your skin and keep a thin layer of warm air captive and prevent cold air from absorbing your body heat. More insulation on top of that keeps the cold air farther away, slowing the process of losing body heat– dead air space that slows air movement and heat transfer.

Thin insulating jackets like the Thermawrap are great, handy garments, the the insulating layer is really quite thin. You do get two fabric shells along with the insulation, cutting air circulation. They also hinder movement of moisture– not completely, but they do make things more humid.

These thin layers are very light and compress well, so they have a lot of appeal to hikers, but a 10oz Thermawrap jacket (not parka) has nowhere near the insulating power of a couple inches of down or something like a BPL Cocoon with .625" loft. IMHO, the Thermawrap jacket (or a down equivalent) doesn't do much more than a 200w fleece. Add a windshirt to a 200w fleece and you have pretty much the same garment, and probably better moisture management and more utility in wearing options.

But fleece is bulky and heavier, so we go for loftier, more expensive stuff like polyester fiber fills or down. I use polyester fills because I hike in wet conditions. Premium down can't be beat for pure lightweight insulating power. Given the same shell weights, it is just a process of how much loft you want over the weight you want to dedicate to insulation — and your wallet.

My guess is that if you are sensitive to cold, it may take a higher loft down jacket to keep you comfortable around camp. Adding layers top and bottom and using a hat, gloves and warm socks will aid the process a lot. In a prefect world, you want to be wearing all your hiking wardrobe– and comfortable at the coldest temperature you have planned for.

IMHO, a high-loft vest gives a lot of insulation and *psychological* warmth, with lest bulk, cost, and weight. You can still wear your base layer and windshirt under/over the vest and even add your rain gear on top if you are still cold. Add gloves and a beanie and you should be toasty.

Or just get in your sleeping bag. The maddening part of having warm camp ("belay") clothing is that you don't need it at all under way, with a thick pack insulating your back and your muscles producing all kinds of good heat walking uphill. A base layer and some basic wind protection is more than enough from me once I get moving, so hauling a big bulky jacket means adding 50% to my clothing weight for a tiny bit of time in camp before I jump in a full body jacket known as a sleeping bag.

I'm going to test using a half bag with an insulating jacket this summer. I recently got a Wild Things Half Bag which I plan to use with an MEC Northern Lite polyfill jacket. The premise is to justify the weight of an insulated jacket by making it part of my sleep system (29oz bag plus 19oz jacket). The rest of my wardrobe would be silkweight base top and bottom, a windshirt, and possibly a mid-weight top like a Power Stretch long sleeve zip tee.

All this dance is to end up with multiple use insulation, which is the heaviest part of my kit, and potentially life-saving gear that must be included in one form or another.

The way I roll is: if temps are expected to be below 50 at night – I take a down jacket and layer underneath what is appropriate for around camp that night. I have a Montbell Alpine down jacket. It is a bit heavy for a down jacket but they didn't have as many choices when I bought mine as they do now. You can't beat down for quick and reliable warmth. When sleeping I stuff the down jacket in a stuff sack and use it as a pillow.

Wow.. that was all very useful. The forums do seem more useful than articles at the moment.

I will get a puffy down layer.. and take one lightweight merino (~6 oz) that I'll wear while hiking, one midweight merino (~10 oz) usually in the backpack + the puffy down layer. I also have a rather heavy & sturdy Outdoor Research rain and wind jacket.. don't have the money to replace it this year.

I'm leaning towards the MontBell Alpine Light Down. If anyone has other suggestions, I'd be happy to hear! I see lots of jackets are on sale at this time of the year..

Question: Is down really so bad in wet weather? I live in NJ and hike in NY, VA etc but am planning a big trip to WA (Cascades).

The way I see it, I'll be wearing the down only around camp and maybe in my insufficient sleeping bag. While I hike, it'll be in a dry sack in my backpack. Should I really think about synthetics if I plan to mostly wear it while resting / camping / sleeping?

PS: A bribe for giving me so much info: I have two 20% off coupons for backcountry.com from having placed 2 orders recently.. they both expire on May 5. I have no need for both coupons.. if you really want it, PM me. (It's not valid for a bunch of brands like NF, Arcteryx etc but think it works for osprey, montbell etc.. let me know what brand you want to use it for.)

In the MontBell lines, a down inner jacket has a very thin shell to it, so it is lighter, but you need some decent shell garment over it to protect it from tree branches and such. I figure that I always have a rain shell with me. No way would I wear my down inner by itself if raindrops were hitting.

Other down jackets have a more substantial shell, so tree branches won't poke them so easily. They weigh a little more. Some have excellent waterproof/breathable shells, but they weigh more yet.
–B.G.–

Down wins the loft/weight game, *if* you can keep it dry. Get it wet it turns into lumps of cold wet goo. Drying the stuff without a dryer is very difficult. With polyester fiber fills, you can wring them out and they will dry in the sun, or even from your body heat if you have no other choice (it won't be pleasant).

All said, I don't own any down garments and polyester fills are my preference for wet and humid climates. I think down has it's place in higher altitude dry climates like the Rockies.

The photo below shows typical Western Washington Cascade lowland and foothills forest, with little direct sunlight reaching the forest floor and upwards of 100" of rainfall a year. The western slopes of the Olympics get 200" a year! A morning walk down a brushy trail can soak you to the elbows with dew. I don't think it is the place for down. Likewise the Pacific Coast from SE Alaska to Northern California.

Drive just 50 miles to the other side of the Cascades and from there on to the Rockies, you get more open forests with less brush and much drier, colder conditions, a great climate for down.

Dale,

Our next big trip is to the Cascades. I understand the deal with moisture and down but I wasn't planning to use down for hiking.

Is it really a problem to use down jacket for just camp / evening / morning wear and maybe as a supplement to my (synthetic) sleeping bag? Does just moisture in the air kill down or does it actually need to get wet?

My posts were based on advising a purchase decision. If you already have down, it will work fine– just keep it dry. If you do get it wet, you will be better equipped for a towel snapping duel than a pillow fight :)

FYI, for this climate, fleece is my favorite. It doesn't fit neatly into an ultralight wardrobe, but the stuff is tough, breathes very well and is comfortable under a wind shirt or rain parka, and is excellent to sleep in. It isn't very cold here, so the fleece delvers some insulation and deals with the moisture easily. If you have some, bring it. Fleece 'n' Gore-Tex rocks.

What we don't get often is the monster thunder showers like the East Coast does. It can drizzle for weeks on end here, but there isn't much accumulation. Only a few times a year do we get several inches of rain in a short period. Seattle proper only gets 38" or so a year. What is significant is the cloud cover, which averages over 200 days a year (71 clear days, 93 partly cloudy). Add that to the latitude, and you have a humid gray tunnel to live in :)

The other thing to consider about travel in the Puget Sound region is that it is an area of micro-climates. You can drive 50 miles and shift the rainfall from 160" a year to 20". It doesn't get cold until you gain significant altitude and the moisture just depends on the area.

I only use my down layers when I'm not hiking, so I don't understand the worry about "walking down the trail and getting my down jacket soaked from all the moisture." Down is far too warm to hike in when the temps are high enough to have liquid water anywhere.

I wasn't clear. I didn't mean that someone would be hiking with a down jacket— my comments were my attempt to illustrate the amount of moisture in the air. In a related matter, people have written about shoes drying overnight, and that ain't happening! Tent condensation can be legendary. Once a down jacket is wet,it's going to stay that way until you get a sunny day above tree line. You can dry clothing with a fire, given the terror of spark holes and smelling like smoke.

Like I said, the sky isn't falling and your down will certainly keep you warm. You have waterproof storage, etc. *IF* I were making a new purchase for this climate, I would lean towards poly fills, that's all.

I have rethought my clothing choices for this year when it come too down vs synthetic…last year we were in Northern BC and it rained ALOT and was windy too boot!

My down quilt and down sweater ended up wet and it really sucked at night. I think for this year i will buy or build a synthetic quilt and probably get a primaloft type jacket for my "sit around" layer…

On a some what related topic, here is a link about the cloths that George Mallory wore on Everest. Its interesting to note that he used wool, cotton and silk for his layering and when they made replicas of his gear it ended up being 20-40% lighter than the standard garb worn by todays climbers…another interesting thing was how freely the layers moved due to the silk layers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5076634.stm

Most if not all down jackets will have some water resistancy. My Montbell has been in light fog/mist around camp with no problems. If it is really raining around camp I just throw the shell on over top.

>>>I wasn't clear. I didn't mean that someone would be hiking with a down jacket— my comments were my attempt to illustrate the amount of moisture in the air.

Gotcha. Sounds like a typical North Carolina summer day. Not that I would carry down in the summer — then I'm mostly trying to hike as close to naked as possible.

Lee wrote, "Most if not all down jackets will have some water resistancy. My Montbell has been in light fog/mist around camp with no problems. If it is really raining around camp I just throw the shell on over top."

Get some perspiration in there and it just keeps getting wetter. 45F and 90% humidity allows your sweat to creep to the outer layers and stay there. That is where the fleece works. If you get a break in the drizzle, you can take your sehll off and it will finish drying pretty quick.

I'm sorry, to go on about this, but if you hike for three days in drizzle and 45F-50F weather (colder nights) everything gets damp and muddy. Your breath hits the tent sides and stays. Boots are cold and wet in the morning– really a treat to put on. Even in late Spring and early summer, the morning dew can be thick. I really have had to stop and put on rain gear to go through brushy trails with big wet leaves.

Here's the trip with the Western Cascades and Olympics: low clouds come in off the Pacific, thick and saturated, and pile into the mountains. They cool as they rise, condensing more and dropping the moisture. The woods are gorgeous with moss and streams everywhere. If you look at a rain map, there are these bands of 100" a year precip microclimates. You can see it driving through as the moss, undergrowth, and timber species change. Go 50-100 miles east and it is desert. Those areas without irrigation are basalt fields, dry grass and tumbleweed. To the northeast are Ponderosa pine forests with little undergrowth and rolling rangeland (Okanagan).

Another thing to consider when deciding, is that
puffy down is easily compressed and looses a lot of insulation when compressed. Puffy synthetic won't compress quite as much. But wool and fleece doesn't compress much at all.
If you add tight layers to a puffy jacket, you loose loft. Wool and synthetic fleece won't loose as much.
So wool for base layers and puffy on top.