30 degree bag, China, REI

You don't say exactly where you are located, but living on a boat in the Pacific Northwest narrows it down a bit. If you want to spend money on the local economy your move would be to buy a bag from Feathered Friends in Seattle. They manufacture right in Seattle and try to run an environmentally responsible business, and the quality of the end product is superb, as is the service and warranty. They have some unique materials no one else is using for sleeping bags…

But I hear you about the gear buyers dilemma, it's tough to not buy the cheap stuff made in China, for some things there isn't really an alternative. You will pay more in this sleeping bag situation, I think mostly because the quality is higher and the operation is small.

A few companies are successfully building products in the USA and selling direct at prices that compete with Chinese production. Cilo Gear, ULA, Cold Cold World, Sixmoon Designs, Jacks R Better, and others come to mind. There is not anyone doing it with plain vanilla light mummy bags though.

I hope this "small, made locally, direct sales" business model will continue to expand, and eventually have a serious effect on the market.

Not that it has much to do w/ gear but….
Buying the bag at the best price to quality ratio, regardless of where it is made, is probably the best way to support your local economy.

Yeah, what Doug said. Feathered Friends bags are top notch (as good as any bag sold anywhere). What you get with bags like these are great warmth to weight ratio along with excellent craftsmanship (the little things work). So, that means you save a few ounces on your back. If that doesn't matter to you, then by all means, get a cheaper bag. You might do just fine, for example, with a good synthetic bag (which has the added advantage of being better in wet conditions).

As far as REI goes, remember that it is a coop. If you don't like the fact that it sells so much stuff made in China, do something about it. Contact the people that run it. It's election time, so contact each of the folks that are running and ask them how they feel about the issue. As a coop, you have as much power as any other member (one person one vote). A public company is one vote per shareholder and a private company is the hands of whoever owns it.

Getting further off topic here, but a previous thread brought this to mind: I wonder if you could equip yourself well with just Seattle gear. Just about all of the Cascade Design stuff is made in Seattle. That means Platypus, Thermarest and MSR. You could get Mountaineers books and Green Trail maps. I think the big challenge would be clothing and shoes.

If you are indeed in Seattle, then I would definitely recommend Feathered Friends. One of the things that is nice about shopping locally is that you sometimes get to know the people who bring you your stuff (for example, at a farmers market). It makes you feel like you are part of a community. This is true of Feathered Friends. I've been there at various slide shows, for example, and rubbed shoulders with some pretty cool mountaineering folks (Fred Beckey, etc.).

I'm in Bellingham Wa, I sold my car six months ago, another experiment, so I ride everywhere I go. I just got off the phone with WM HUMMM.:)

Sorry, jumping in late and don't know if this has already been suggested…

If you want a world class 30F bag made in the USA — get the Western Mountaineering Summerlite. Just watch out for the narrower cut (this is a UL bag) if you are a big person.

Separately, I agree with James Klein 100%.

Sorry if this isn't relevant here, but this thread seems as good a place to ask as any. A few years ago I bought a down sleeping bag off canadian ebay for a very good price brand new. Made by a company called Highland Feather. The blurb said the shell was made locally, then got filled in china, and then returned to Canada for 'finishing'.

I wondered about this. Are chinese geese better than Canada geese for their down? Or are the chinese better at separating the wheat from the chaff down-wise? Or did it just come down to cost? Was the 'finishing' in Canada a way of getting round import tarrif?

It was a good bag, around the same weight as Mountain Equipment 'Lightline', warm down to freezing as Ali wants, and long enough for yours truly.

I recently sold it on ebay for three times what I paid. I currently use a long WM Ultralite in winter because the shell is more water resistant and it's 7oz lighter. My 17oz summer quilt was made by Tim Marshall of this Parish.

James and Benjerman, I'm confused? Im not bagging on China or REI. My point is why should I support my LBS if they dont support the local or national economy. If I go to the local guy and buy a chinese bag half the money to to China not a hard working local. It wont keep the money here in my neigborhood where it counts. If im just looking for a good price I can buy online but im only shooting myself in the foot as it may mean the little guy has to shut his doors and I have no local shoppe. I guess I'm a little bent as I keep hearing a bout a jobless recovery??? Jobs are the recovery and it starts in my own backyard.

Ali:

Many of us care passionately about buying American and many of us care just as passionately that the best way to help American industry is to simply buy the best for the price — a tough love sort of thing. Then there are also those where this simply isn't an issue either way!

Seriously, as this is the G Spot — it would be better for everyone concerned if we all just state what gear brand / model, etc. we are interested in — ask our questions accordingly — and avoid bringing up our own social / political leanings, agenda, whatever.

As a comparison, I think Roger's question about the quality of Chinese geese is a legitimate gear question. In contrast, I think supporting our local economy is not a legitimate gear question.

But please feel free to air your views on the Chaff branch!

Curious, what do you think about the WM Summerlite?

I understand your point wasn't dissing either China and REI. I made the comment b/c I think your idea of how to best help your local economy is misguided.
If you spend your money on the products that meet your needs most efficiently from a quality / price standpt than you push your local & nation economy to do what it is most effient at doing. This might very well be selling sleeping bags and not making them. Trade is a great thing, even at the local level. The best thing a consumer can do in a free market is make descisions based on their wallet.
Sorry if this sounds argumentative, I don't mean it to.

Ben, not to get agrumentitive :) But of course it is. Its about gear and how and where it is made is a huge determining factor in choice. I would like to hear some suggestions about actual products though. I do agree that the Feathered Friends guys are great as is there gear but for some reason I feel the Western Mountianeering bags are a better fir for me.

I don't own a WM Summerlite, but having fondled one — it really is a top-quality bag. I dislike the red color, but that's a minor issue — and subjective one as well.

So, are you going to click the buy button?

Finally, methinks you and James should start a thread on Chaff. I'll join you guys there!

Ali:

It's Benjamin — although Ben is fine too. :)

Hey, guys, let me interject a little history on international competition.

Many years ago, REI had two subsidiaries, MSR and Thaw. MSR built the hard hardware and Thaw built the soft goods and clothing. Thaw made its sleeping bags domestically in the USA using Polish goose down, primarily because the Poles had developed their geese for food purposes, and the down was a natural by-product. Then around the late 1970's, the factory labor in China was opened up, so Thaw started shipping the raw materials there for sewing and assembly. Of course, the primary marketplace was in the USA. After a while, the Chinese agents said, "We can produce the raw down cheaper than Poland." So, that was decided, and the entire sleeping bags were made in China. Instantly, the end-customer price for a down sleeping bag in the USA decreased by 30-40%.

Once the bonds between REI and Poland had broken down, REI was dependent on Chinese manufacturing. If that works good, then that is OK to maintain. If manufacturing pricing becomes predatory or delivery is slow, then things must change.

The domestic manufacturers like Feathered Friends operate differently. They don't have a million factory workers ready and willing to work for a dollar a day. So, the domestic companies don't try to compete much in that mass market. Instead, they go after the semi-custom market for down bags. As an example, you order a particular model of bag with several different options for length, zipper side, etc., and they have a lot of the materials pre-cut and are simply waiting for the (expensive) labor to assemble it. So, the customer gets the finished bag some days later. It won't be quite as inexpensive as the Chinese-made bag, but it may be more perfectly tuned for use by an up-scale customer. It may or may not have more innovative technology.

So, as a customer, what do you want to buy if the price of down is up, or if the price of down is down? :-)

Speaking as a customer, I want to see the right product at the right price. Speaking as an REI member, I want to see the coop be successful, business-wise. Speaking as a taxpayer, I want to see domestic industry succeed. I own three sleeping bags that each fit one of these three ideas.

–B.G.–

"It's Benjamin — although Ben is fine too. :)"

Don't worry about that, Benjamin. That is just a minor quality control error, and we will pick it up on the next production run. :-)

–B.G.–

Personally, I think Ali is right; I believe the best way to support the local economy is to buy (as much as is possible) locally produced stuff. I also believe that it benefits the U.S. economy (and similar economies) if purchases are made from the U.S. and similar countries. I also believe that such purchases are better for the world, overall. I'm prepared to argue those points, but has already been said, the arguments should be made on chaff.

Assuming that a person from Bellingham wants to buy locally (or as locally as possible) then I think both Feathered Friends and Nunatak make sense. Nunatak bags are made in Twisp, which isn't too far from Bellingham (although Seattle is still closer). That part of the discussion (about particular sleeping bags) belongs here. The rest of it probably belongs in chaff.

Really off topic: You sold your car and you live in Bellingham? Be prepared to share a lot of rides — you live in, perhaps, the best day hiking city in the country. Not to mention world class (and relatively easy) back country skiing or snow shoeing.

Ross, I agree this place is a goldmine. I had my bike out this weekend on some of my secret trails and didnt see a single person the whole time but on the in and out it was pretty crowded. Trail access is one of the major difficulties in not having a car but our public transportation system is pretty good here. For example I can ride my bike to the airport and hop a puddlejumper anywhere for onder 70 bucks if Im looking to get out of town. Our innner urban trail system is also fantastic but much more fun in winter when there is not a person in sight.

Ali, it is good to see you back on this forum. I have an idea that will help out the local economy and get you a great bag.
I’m local and have a WM Summerlite for sale on the gear forum. Summerlite
It’s a win-win for everyone, you support me and I use the money pay some local bills I have due (because of the bad economy).
Everything stays local! The bag is now part of the local economy. Just like me, I moved here 45 years ago and am now considered a local, I own a local business (struggling with the economy), I also purchase local goods, I produce a local service, and work to keep things local, the bag is now a local, so you can help the local economy by purchasing this local bag.

Allie,

That Mountainsmith Phantom 32 you have is actually a Mountain Hardwear Phantom 32. I owned one briefly (& never used it). After seeing a Western Mountaineering Megalite 30 degree bag I realized how little down was in the Phantom 32 so I returned it to REI & ordered the WM Megalite.

Yes, I paid $100. more but got a MUCH better bag for the money. I've used my WM Megalite in 25 F. weather with thin long johns & was warm.

Return your Phantom 32 before you spend a miserably cold night in that underinsulated cheapo. I'd go with the Campmor 30 deg. down bag before I would get another Phantom 32.

Eric

Or you could go politically neutral with this seriously nice and light Swiss bag:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=31631

Ali e, the MH Phantom 32 is EN tested to 32 degrees, I own two other Phantoms and they are quality bags, especially my Phantom 15 that is true to its’ EN 15 degree temperature rating. Having said that I’ve owned a WM Megalite since 5/03 and found it to be an excellent bag, and I’ve recently switched to a FF Vireo combined with a hooded Volant or Helios depending on conditions.

It’s all good, your new Phantom is a great bag at what works is what works for you as your style evolves.