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New sleeping system for unexperienced person

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PostedApr 16, 2010 at 9:26 am

Howdy folks,

I've been lurking around the forums for a while, but haven't had anything to say. I'm a relatively inexperienced backpacker, and I want to start lightening up. The motivation for this is an upcoming 5-day trip a friend and I are doing somewhere in the mountainous U.S (location up in the air: either Sierras, North Cascades, or San Juans).

Most of my gear is old, ineffective, and heavy–and so is my current sleeping bag. Even without weighing it, I know I need a new one.

If you all had one sleeping system to buy, what would you get? The challenge I see is that many of you go for less-warm bags (say 35F rating) for summer backpacking; however, if I want something for the shoulder seasons, I would think I'd want something more with a 20F ratings (realizing here that temperature rating is mostly meaningless).

Also, I'd note that I sleep cold, I toss and turn a lot, and my shoulders often get cold while my feet get hot. For these reasons, I am thinking a quilt is not the best option for me–but I'm still open to the suggestion.

I also haven't decided on a sleeping pad, nor on my clothing, but I figure that all covaries with my bag choice.

For whatever it's worth, last time I went backpacking, I used a +20F REI Sub Kilo (pardon the link to Outside, but it's the only place I could find with the bag http://outside.away.com/outside/gear/gear.tcl?gear=REI-Sub-Kilo-20&gear_id=141&action=showgear), and froze in the Canadian Rockies, even with all my clothes on, when it got down to about 14F.

So, what would you do if you were buying one bag and wanted to make the most of it, but still wanted to be light? Also, do any of you buy synthetic bags for moral or utilitiarian reasons? Thanks!

Gabe P BPL Member
PostedApr 16, 2010 at 9:37 am

I'd buy a Western Mountaineering Sycamore MF, or a Caribou MF and use a down jacket and pants when it gets below freezing. You should also look at the ExtremeLight series as well. I prefer the MF series because the MF material is more water resistant, durable and breathable than the ExtremeLight material — and it's not much heavier. The ExtremeLight series, however, seems to be more popular amongst BPL members.

Hope that helps…

PostedApr 16, 2010 at 10:15 am

Derek,
Hi! I have become a quilt convert – I think your should try a quilt before you buy a bag…

Like you, I was concerned about cold air coming in or drifting under the edge of my quilt. But, unlike a sleeping BAG, the quilt does not move with your body as you toss and turn, it stays put, touching the pad on both sides of you and creating many less "pressure points" than a sleeping bag. The bivy helps to keep the quilt in place for you. This prevents cold air coming under the quilt and simultaneously removes those nasty cold spots at your elbows, hips and knees. I believe that a quilt is typically WARMER in real use than a bag of comparable loft, because of this issue.

One typical source of cold for a quilt sleeper is the ground – so it is extra important to get a pad with good thermal properties, since the primary barrier to ground cold is your pad (versus you pad + compressed sleeping bag!). After several options, I've landed on the gossamer gear thinlight insulating pad, glued to a z-lite torso pad (for a little upper body comfort). BPL also has a pad called the DIAD which looks very similar to the GG thinlite.

Finally, as part of a comprehensive sleep system, your clothes are simply part of the system, so you can stretch use of an even lighter weight quilt. You have to experiment to test your tolerance to this, but, with some care, you can tune your system to flex nicely across all four seasons.

My core sleep system now consists of:
a. 1/3 z-lite pad glued to a Gossamer Gear thinlite pad
b. BPL UL-90 quilt with all strings removed
c. VAPR Quantum bivy bag with nooseeum bug screen
d. BPL UL-60 Side Zip Insulated Pants OR Long Johns
e. BPL UL-60 Vest OR EMS Ascent Insulated Jacket OR Patagonia Nano Sweater
f. BPL UL-60 Balaclava OR Merino Wool Watch Cap
g. Possum down gloves OR Polypro Glove Liners
h. Warm Wool Socks

Get the idea? With this kind of flexible system, you can tailor your warmth level to the conditions you expect to face by changing the clothing options rather than having two quilts or bags.

Personally, I'm in the middle of researching a purchase of a slightly warmer down quilt to replace the BPL quilt, hopefully allowing me to reduce the amount of clothing needed – gotta experiment with that one to see what works.

I like the look of the GoLite Ultra 20 quilt, there are also a number of outfits who will make you one to order. Final option might be to post in the gear swap here and see if you can pick one up second hand.

Anyway, my 2cs – get a quilt and build a comprehensive sleep system for yourself. Good luck!

Peace, James.

te – wa BPL Member
PostedApr 16, 2010 at 11:12 am

times two for the quilt suggestion. you'll notice, most of the quilts are being made by Cottage Gear (in this case, cottage is short for "cutting edge") companies.
paul from kickassquilts
adam – from theperfecttrees.com
john/jack from Jacks'rBetter
tim marshall
brandon from warbonnetoutdoors
ron from MLD
tom from nunatak
myself from te-waunderquilts

all fine quilt makers. i agree a quilt/bivy/tarp combo will get you a super low weight sleep system. if you want a little more weight, (not much) but greater comfort, hanging in the trees of CO is a charm. in this case, you ditch the pad in exchange for an "underquilt"
most of the above quilt makers are 4-season "hangers" (an affectionate term for a hammock user) and with good reason, hammocks and quilts are a perfect combination.

just search the 'net for the above companies, and/or visit http://www.hammockforums.net

mike aka te-wa

Brad Rogers BPL Member
PostedApr 16, 2010 at 11:14 am

I now use a quilt most all of the time, but here is what I would recommend for a newer backpacker looking for a very versatile system, I would look at a nice 20* full zip bag that isn't too narrow in the shoulders. I might look at the Western Mountaineering Alpinlite and Marmot Helium.

With a bag like that, you can use the full zip to use like a quilt in the summer, and you have room to add insulated clothing to make it for milder winter conditions (depending on where you hike). I am not discounting quilts, as I am currently using the Golite Ultra 20, but there are just so few options out there.

Mary D BPL Member
PostedApr 16, 2010 at 12:05 pm

Since you're in Colorado, your normal backpacking environment is harsher than that of many summer backpackers. At high altitudes in the Rockies, you can expect below-freezing temperatures any night during the summer. It can snow any time, too. Last summer in Wyoming's Wind Rivers there was a foot of snow in the alpine areas on Aug. 8 (just before I started) and again on Aug. 15. If my dog hadn't gotten sick, forcing me to cut short my trip, I'd have been up at 11,000 feet for the Aug. 15 storm (it would have been a good test of my gear!). Even around home (Pacific NW), I like to backpack in shoulder season in which similar conditions exist by September.

I therefore use a 20*F bag (Western Mountaineering Ultralite) for summer backpacking. Admittedly, it's too warm for warm nights in the Oregon Cascades, but I can leave the full-length zipper open or even start out on top of the bag when I go to bed. Even during a hot spell, nights at higher altitude cool down enough that I usually have the zipper mostly closed by morning. I want a sleep system that, with supplemental insulating clothing, will keep me warm (or at least not shivering) to the low teens (F) if necessary, because I have regularly encountered such conditions at high altitudes during my summer trips.

A well-insulated pad is really important in those conditions. I found out the hard way last fall that the NeoAir is not designed for below freezing conditions unless you supplement it with a nice thick CCF pad (a GG Thinlite pad definitely did not do the job). Maybe it was just as well I did miss that Wind Rivers snowstorm! I realize that some here have survived the NeoAir with a thin supplemental pad in below-freezing temps, but I'm a cold sleeper! Do try out any pad you buy at home on the floor for a couple of nights; comfort is also important. Those of us who are older need more padding underneath, as do side-sleepers. Sleeping styles vary considerably by individuals, so you need to find what is comfortable for YOU.

I personally like to have my WM bag (with its wonderful draft collar, worth at least another 5* of temperature rating, IMHO!) snuggled around me when it's cold. As others here have suggested, I'd start with a sleeping bag, with a full-length zipper. The full-length zip will let you use the bag as a quilt (I've done that for warmer nights). If you decide after several cold-weather trials that you prefer the quilt configuration even on really cold nights, you can sell the bag (used but well-cared-for high-quality down bags are easy to sell!) and get a quilt.

The high-end bags are generally fairly accurately rated. Western Mountaineering bags are actually rather conservatively rated, considering that as a really cold sleeper I can be comfortable well below its rated temperature!

Be sure to pay close attention to girth measurements. Measure around the outside your shoulders wearing several insulation layers (puffy if possible). You don't want to compress either the bag's insulation or your clothing's insulation, which you'll do if the fit is too snug! If you get claustrophobic in a snug-fitting bag, get something wider. If you look at the Western Mountaineering bags, you'll see that they have narrow and wide bags for almost every temperature rating.

Oh, and if you're worried about moral reasons, most countries have strict laws against plucking live geese. I have read that China is not one of those. In Europe, goose meat is a popular item on the menu, so you won't find geese being killed only for their down, either. A few companies only use the down that live geese shed as part of the normal moulting process; of course those are the most expensive!

Having been there and done that, I can tell you that a wet synthetic bag is every bit as cold as a wet down bag! (That was the same trip during which I learned about being extra-careful not to select a tent site that could turn into a lake during an all-night cloudburst followed by several inches of snow!) Whatever your insulation, it's absolutely vital to keep it dry! Keep it inside something that will keep it dry if you slip and fall while fording a stream, whether a waterproof pack liner or a dry bag. Always unpack or pack it under your shelter. If you get what we Northwesterners call a "sunbreak" during the day, stop and air out your sleeping bag.

PostedApr 16, 2010 at 12:34 pm

Thanks for all the great posts. Your advice is much appreciated.

Regarding a quilt, one then sleeps inside a bivy sack? (didn't know that–silly me). My REI cheapo bivy sack dosn't let condensation out that well, and then I end up with a moist sleeping bag. Is that generally a problem or just with not-so-good bivy sacks.

Also regarding quilts, when it is a little warmer, my feet get hot and I like to unzip the bottom of my bag and stick my feet out, even if my upper body is a little cold. I'd guess hot feet are a hazard with a quilt/bivy system?

Also, also, do you quilt users miss the padding you would have under you with a sleeping bag? I like to sleep on my side, but my hips have tended to bruise when I don't have some padding (although I am going to experiment with a non-thermarest sleeping pad and see how it goes).

I have read the recent mummy bag review; but what has been confusing me is how warm I should be shooting for if I want the most flexible sleeping arrangements. Like you, Mary D, I've run into snow in the Wind Rivers in the summer, and we had about 8" near Banff in August on one trip. So I've been struggling to figure out what would maximize my flexibility, but at the same time not give in to my old-school heavy backpacking thinking of having too much.

I'd love to try hammocking; I'd also like to try using just a bivy sack when I know the weather is reasonable. My resolution to myself is that I will backpack much, much, more often than every 3 years, and there's so much around me within easy late afternoon access in the summer.

One more quick note, I am thinking about getting a 2-person tarptent. My goal is to find something light that I can share with a friend, and also something I can fit my 2 kids in.

PostedApr 16, 2010 at 12:37 pm

By the way Mary D, I lived in Newport, OR one year, and other places in Oregon for 10 years. So I can relate to sunbreaks in the Fall-Winter-Spring seasons. I still mist the humidity–it's so dry out here usually.

Brad Rogers BPL Member
PostedApr 16, 2010 at 12:45 pm

You don't have to use a bivy with a quilt, I don't. They do help stop drafts in cold weather, adding warmth, but they are mainly for weather protection (for example rain blowing under a tarp)

I kknow that at least here, where it is so humid, they can have condensation issues. I would go with a water resistant, not water proof bivy if you decide you need one.

PostedApr 16, 2010 at 2:36 pm

Thanks. I had found that water would condense on top of my sleeping bag and freeze if I just use my bivy on a cold night.

PostedApr 16, 2010 at 2:45 pm

+1 for water resistant bivy. MLD Superlight is one good choice. Available in regular or wide to fit any pad and your standard or larger girth bags. About 6-7oz if I remember right.

PostedApr 16, 2010 at 2:50 pm

Condensation is more of a problem in the less breathable waterproof bivies.
The newer ultralight, highly breathable bivies don't have that much of a problem, but they aren't totally waterproof either. So you would want some kind of tarp or something over you to stop most of the rain and snow.

A bivy isn't needed under a full coverage shelter/tent.

PostedApr 16, 2010 at 2:54 pm

Sleeping bags, especially down bags, provide very little insulation between you and the ground. So you shouldn't need a thicker pad if you are under a quilt. A proper fitting quilt should be as warm as an equivalent thickness sleeping bag. I think some people end up with a quilt that fits looser than their sleeping bag and that is why the sleeping bag is warmer.

PostedApr 16, 2010 at 3:02 pm

Is this a reasonable comparison for someone thinking about getting a tarptent: to look at the total quilt + bivy weight versus the weight of a sleeping bag alone? Or would i want a bivy with a sleeping bag too?

PostedApr 16, 2010 at 3:04 pm

A bivy is unnecessary under a tarptent as a tarptent is full coverage. Doesn't matter if you use a sleeping bag or quilt.

PostedApr 16, 2010 at 3:16 pm

Cool. I have just seen tarptents in pictures, and it looked as if there was potential for water to blow in on the sides.

PostedApr 16, 2010 at 3:27 pm

You can get some spray, like any tent, it depends on the design.

My wife and I use a Henry Shire Rainshadow as our two person tent. We have been in exposed areas with blowing rain, strong wind switching directions all night.

We had some spray and some spray is totally fine. We realized after some really bad nights, that it is plenty weatherproof.

PostedApr 16, 2010 at 3:30 pm

But I want to mention that when I solo, I sleep under a tarp and I do use an ultralight bivy to:
1) Keep the bugs off
2) Acts as a ground cloth and keeps the bag clean and dry
3) Provides reasonable protection from rain spray and snowdrift.

Jeffs Eleven BPL Member
PostedApr 16, 2010 at 5:26 pm

I sleep on my side and used to get sores on my hips from the ground. Try a 2.5 inch "raft- style'(?), 'chambered'(?) pad such as the Big Agnes Insulated Air Core. Rvalue of 4.1 but I still get cold while on snow. If you're ballin' get a Exped Down mat or a light one from Kooka Bay- they iz warmer

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