SMD Haven vs. TT DR

Hopefully we can get a BPL review of the SMD Haven. It appears to have a lot of potential.

I just noticed that SMD just added the prices for the Haven to their website. It's $200 for the tarp and $155 for the nettent, so $355 total.

The Haven appears to need 6 stakes, so if you went with 8g Ti skewers which are a popular choice then you're looking at ~2oz in stakes for a total weight of 38oz vs. 41oz.

If you can handle the $95 price premium, the Haven seems like the clear winner in my opinion for most conditions. The Haven is 3oz less and you get double wall protection from condensation and a lot more headroom which adds a lot to the 'livability' of the tent IMO. The Haven has nearly vertical sidewalls so the tent is still 44" wide at the 45" high roof. The DR roof is lower (43") and the sidewalls slope inwards so it's only about 15" wide by that height. The Haven is also going to be a bit warmer due to it's double walls. The Haven and the DR seems to have similar floor dimensions, but the Haven has the skewers in the 4 corners so all of the floor area is usable, whereas the outer few inches in the DR would be lost due to the inward sloping walls.

The weight savings of the Haven would be lost if you aren't a trekking pole user and you need to add the optional poles instead. The DR would be advantageous to people who value being able to make it freestanding with trekking poles. The DR also appears a bit more storm worthy and capable of light snowloads.

The Double Rainbow is a much better tent in many respects. For example it has a smaller footprint and can be set up freestanding, very important for some sites.
I would imagine that it will also set up taut faster than the other shelter.
By shape it should shed more wind and snow, not that this has been tested.
Nice also to have some rain protection when the vestibule/beak is open.
(you need trekking poles or a line to some branches for this)
Hard to tell from the specs but should also pack a bit smaller. And of course by the time you buy the pegs it is more than $100 cheaper.

OK, I was just having a bit of fun, but the point is that we tend to take what is important for us as the criteria . For example some shelters are dismissed because too small for the commentator when they could be big enough (or more than big enough) for the OP.

Franco
(definitely NOT an official Tarptent comment…)

The DR does seem like it would setup faster.

I vote for DR as well.

Another vote for the DR. I can tell for certain that the Haven wouldn't have enough clearance at the ends for a 4" DAM plus 4" lofting sleeping bag (plus head), whereas the DR has plenty of room in that regard…and it can be set up to be extremely wind and snow resistant. Plus I personally would never touch another tent that doesn't have rain porches-they are such a godsend! Like Franco said, it really depends on what things are important for YOU.

I would like to remind Franco that you can't have it both ways. In this case you can't say you say you're affiliated with Tarptent and then say this is an independent opinion. Once you've made an association, independence is no longer an option.

That said, comparing the DR to the Haven is like comparing Apples to Oranges. The simple fact is they are shelters just like the other two are fruit. Beyond that they are very different beast with different capabilities.

Taken together, the Haven tarp and nettent form a spacious lightweight double wall tent. For many who hate single walled shelters, this is a bonus.

The design and shape of the Haven is to maximize internal space while minimizing weight. To that extent I think it works.

Some people will simply buy the Haven Tarp. It's shape and size make it a spacious 2 person tarp that's simpler to setup than most tarps and provides significantly more weather protection.

Others will buy both products and then pick and choose under what conditions they will take one or both items. During high bug season, the nettent is taken to provide bug protection that is significantly more comfortable than using 2 bivies. Otherwise the tarp is taken alone.

As to which tent fares better in severe weather also depends upon your point of view. When setup with two hiking poles, the Haven will provide a very secure shelter that will handle winds with ease.

While the long arch pole of the Rainbow does provide an excellent tension source, it's narrow diameter is no match for the strength of dual hiking poles.

Also I would note that if Haven is a poor chose of shelter for bad weather then the other long tunnel like Tarptents such as the Cloudburst, Squall, Contrail, etc. would be absolute disasters in anything worse than a summer breeze. Compared to these shelters the Haven has a considerably smaller expanse of unsupported fabric.

In any case, Henry and I will be getting together in the next couple of weeks and I'm sure we'll have a good laugh at these comparisons.

Ron
Six Moon Designs

PS: To answer Lynn's concerns, the height of the end walls of the Haven NetTent is 12" at the end of it's 90" length. The actual Tarp canopy extends another 5" beyond the NetTent is a couple of inches higher. This provides plent of room for the thickest pads and sleeping bags.

As to a porch. The Haven NetTent is reset within the tarp and has pretty vertical walls. It's pretty easy to get in and out without getting wet or setting up some fancy rigging.

Also since the NetTent is hung within the canopy, it can easily be taken down and stored when the canopy is wet or it's raining and be kept dry.

"While the long arch pole of the Rainbow does provide an excellent tension source, it's narrow diameter is no match for the strength of dual hiking poles."

But the DR has grommets to accommodate two trekking poles if need be, making for a very stable tent. We've tested it more than once in gale force winds. I haven't tested the Haven (obviously), but would love to do so if cost were not an issue, and the head and foot clearance wasn't a concern. Plus I know most folks don't use 4" DAMs in their shelters. BTW, the optional liner to the DR makes it 'as good as' a double walled tent IMHO, in fact better than a wholly mesh lined tent as the liner also adds warmth when cold and reflects heat when hot. However, the ability to pitch the fly separately if the inner is not needed is appealing. Can the inner be pitched without the fly? That would be sweet on hot summer evenings…

"long tunnel like Tarptents such as the Cloudburst…would be absolute disasters in anything worse than a summer breeze"

I disagree, at least for the Cloudburst which has also withstood some pretty scary winds, and both the DR and CloudBurt can shed moderate snow loads if pitched properly. Not sure how the Haven would stand up to snow???

I can tell for certain that the Haven wouldn't have enough clearance at the ends for a 4" DAM plus 4" lofting sleeping bag (plus head).

I wouldn't be so certain if you've never used the Haven. The Haven looks pretty generous in this regard with the 4 corner skewers.

Can the inner be pitched without the fly? That would be sweet on hot summer evenings…

Yes

"long tunnel like Tarptents such as the Cloudburst…would be absolute disasters in anything worse than a summer breeze"

I disagree, at least for the Cloudburst which has also withstood some pretty scary winds,

This is a bit of a misquote. Ron isn't saying these tents would be disasters like the quote implies. Ron said that IF the Haven is a poor choice for bad weather, then these tents would be disasters. So he's really just saying the Haven would fare better than these other shelters, but any of these tents is going to do fine in conditions you'd normally encounter in 3 season use. Arguing over which tent can handle the biggest hurricane is a bit of a red herring IMO.

This whole thread is really a red herring actually because we're comparing a single wall shelter to a double wall. The Scarp 2 would be the closest TT comparison to the Haven but even these two shelters differ a lot in aim.

Ron
I thought that I made it obvious that they were tongue in cheek comments.
As you state the two shelters are not that much alike anyway so the customer should choose whatever he/she thinks is suitable for them.

My point is that all too often people focus on the negatives of a particular shelter forgetting that it could be just the perfect choice for someone else.

But thank you for your input, always appreciated. After all I like tents, most tents…
Franco
And sorry if I crossed that fine line…
(and yes , I am aware of your relationship with Henry….)

"This is a bit of a misquote. Henry isn't saying these tents would be disasters like the quote implies. Henry said that IF the Haven is a poor choice for bad weather, then these tents would be disasters"

Well, the quote was from Ron, not Henry, so take with a grain of salt. We won't really know anything about the Haven until it's been tested in the hands of independent, unbiased field reviewers.

"I wouldn't be so certain if you've never used the Haven. The Haven looks pretty generous in this regard with the 4 corner skewers."

It doesn't look generous to me, at least not compared to the DR. And though the Haven has a higher peak head room, the overall usable headroom of the DR is pretty nice as the pole arch gives you room to sit up along over half the length of the tent. You can sit straight up from sleeping without brushing your head against the walls of the DR, don't know about the Haven. The Haven looks more like the Lunar solo-e in that respect (even the 44" peak height), which was definitely not a fun tent to sit up in when condensation was the name of the game.

I mis-typed the names in my earlier post. My post now reads Ron as it should.

You can sit straight up from sleeping without brushing your head against the walls of the DR, don't know about the Haven.

The peak height of the Haven is offset towards the 'head' end of the tent (unlike the Refuge X) so that you are positioned under the highest part when you sit up. I think this picture shows it well:

Taking some liberties with TM's and CR's etc., without permission, and not a lot of skill, I did some Photoshopping.

I relied on the call-outs of each tent and scaled accordingly, to get the best match I could of the 90"of the Haven NetTent vs the 88" of the Double Rainbow floor.

With a little imagination and some knowledge of the footprints you can arrive at your own conclusions about comparable floor and vestibule space.

Edit: Corrected Haven and Double Rainbow lengths above.

Interesting diagram. The total footprint of these tents as it affects site selection looks pretty similar.

What a strange discussion given that the 6 moons is not out yet and in anyone's hands. Perhaps we should wait before making negative commentary on its performance through those of an arm chair review (eh Lynn?).

;)

David,
They are out, and on the way to "early adapters".

Now we just need some field situations, photos, and first hand comments.

Greg,
Is that the pre 2010 DR footprint? The 2010 version got wider but it doesn't look like the cutaway dimension model got updated yet.

I am looking for a lighter 2P tent and have narrowed it down to the DR and the Haven. While they are different in the specifics, they are still both 2 person tents at around 2.5lbs. From what I can gather, the DR will be more spacious lying down (I'm 6'3"), while the Haven will have more space to sit up side by side with someone. I'm a little disappointed that the bamboo poles are only 12" tall. My feet are 11" long so with a 30deg bag, insulation will start getting compressed with my feet at the end of the net tent. Did a quick CAD model and looks like it will be tight for me (model is me in a 30deg bag but no sleeping pad).

Ah to be 3 inches shorter (looking whimsically off into the distance).

Also, does anybody have a feeling on how durable a bamboo pole will be?

Chris

Chris,
I just took what is currently posted from each site. I have no idea if they are updated or not. Looking at the posted "product sheet", there Might me a 2" growth on width. But given my quick-and-dirty approach, it is a moot point.

Large diameter bamboo is used for scaffolding in many places. So the question becomes – What diameter for this application? Bamboo was widely used for ski poles, and survived a lot of abuse.

"What a strange discussion given that the 6 moons is not out yet and in anyone's hands."

That was precisely one of my points. The DR is a known, and quite nice, tent. The Haven is really unknown and untested in the real world, so based on that alone I would choose the DR.

"Perhaps we should wait before making negative commentary on its performance through those of an arm chair review (eh Lynn?)."

Arm chair it may be, but as both the CADS above show, the Haven has a smaller vestibule space, and not much clearance at the ends for folks with long feet (Christopher), or with high profile DAMs and bags. That is apparent, and having used a Lunar solo-E with the same floor length, same peak height, and similar end heights, I am quite confident the Haven would not be high enough at the ends. And not all my commentary was negative, in fact I was being quite fair by adding that some of the Haven design features are an improvement over the DR, such as independent pitching of inner and outer.

Aside from that, a lot is being made of the higher peak height of the Haven at 45". But that height is only at a single point, and applies to the fly height without the inner. Depending on how low the inner hangs, you would expect to lose and inch or two when adding the inner, whereas the DR maintains it's 43" peak height over a longer span, meaning we can (have) had four folks sitting in it for a game of cards. None of this is really much speculation, but can easily be gleaned from the specs of the two tents. the only thing that is pure speculation is how wind stable the Haven will be. Having used the DR in gale winds (with the extra support of two trekking poles just like the Haven uses), I would again choose the devil I know in that respect. Also, the OP was wondering about condensation, and again I know for a fact that the DR can be set up with rain porches deployed to minimise condensation. The Haven doesn't appear to have this option. The Haven also has a lot of flat surfaces for snow to accumulate on, again not speculation. The Haven has an absolute requirement for trekking poles (or extra tent poles), the DR can be set up without trekking poles. These are all merely things to take into consideration when choosing between the two tents, and some of these will be more important to some folks than others, eg if you are not tall, use a 1 inch mat and 2 inch lofting bag, then the low end walls of the Haven are not an issue, but then again the alledged higher peak height is not really an issue for shorter folks. If you don't hike where snow is a concern, then the flat surfaces of the Haven are a non-issue. If you don't carry trekking poles, the the DR may be a better bet, and so on…

Chris,

If you look at the image below you'll find that at your height of 6'3" you'll have 7" between you and the mesh at each end of the tent. You'll also have and additional 5" between the mesh and the canopy. The combined distance is 12" on both ends of the tent.

Thanks,
Ron

Six Moon Designs

Thanks for all the info guys. I appreciate it.

Ron,
Thanks for chiming in. I based the model of myself on getting in my 30deg bag and having my wife take some measurements. We got 84in from head to foot and 14in tall at my feet. This is without any sleeping pad.

I really like the design of the Haven (especially if a cuben tarp version comes out for it) and would be leaning that way if I wasn't concerned with fit at my feet. I think if the bamboo poles at the foot area were 3-4in taller, I would fit with a 2.5in DAM. I'm a design engineer during the day so I understand the trade offs you make during the design process all too well. Just a little bummed because before it was released, it sounded like the Haven would have plenty of room for tall hikers like myself.

Chris

Chris,

I’ll certainly grant that trying to access how much room is available in a tent is difficult when you can’t actually crawl into to one. Personally I think you’d be comfortable in either the Double Rainbow or the Haven.

With the Haven we have done a significant effort to ensure that the tent was comfortable for all sizes of people. The best comparison for the space inside of the Haven would be with the Lunar Duo and not the Lunar Solo as some have compared it to. Below is a diagram of the Haven with the Lunar Duo overlaid on it. It shows very well the overall size of the interior.

While the Haven does have a smaller interior, it should easily accommodate tall hikers as well as the Lunar Duo. It doesn’t take much web searching to discover the popularity of the Lunar Duo among tall hikers. We have many hikers 6’ 5” and taller adopt the Lunar Duo due to it comfort.

Hope this helps,
Ron
Six Moon Designs

"Arm chair it may be, but as both the CADS above show, the Haven has a smaller vestibule space, and not much clearance at the ends for folks with long feet (Christopher), or with high profile DAMs and bags."

Ron has cleared this one up for you hopefully in his subsequent posts. Again, without you actually getting in one it may be hard to comment – i.e. vertical walls and all that.

I look forward to users commenting on the wind and condensation management of the new Haven. The fact that it is double walled should help in that regard.

Thanks for the info and diagrams Ron. Decisions, decisions…