Help me with my sleep system!

Since you are skinny, you may as well take advantage of UL bags cut for skinny people Two great brands that always come to mind are:

1. Western Mountaineering – They are known to be honest with their weight specs and a bit "conservative" with their warmth rating — meaning folks find they can use the bags at slightly colder temps than rated and still feel fine. In your case, maybe the bags will be spot on.

2. MontBell – UL Spiral Down Hugger model at various warmth ratings. They also have "super" spiral models. Most people find MB bags rated fairly in warmth. In your case, you might go up one warmth rating just to be sure.

>At this point in time I am sleeping on an Exped 7 downmat. I say this, so people can jump in on this thread and tell me what a wuss I am.

There are a bunch of down mat users here! I'm 28, in good shape, sleep moderately warm, and I just switched to a custom down mat by Kooka Bay. The beauty of it is that Its lighter than a Neoair for the same size, with twice the R-value!

As far as the Pinnacle goes, I have it and it is 42 ounces, not 52! I've had this bag down to about 11 degrees and have been fine. Other times I've been cold around 20. Its almost like each night is a case by case issue. So many variables!

Or you can get the Montbell Spiral Down Hugger #1 (15 degree rating) which weighs only 32 ounces. Girlfriend has it and loves it. She's a cold sleeper.

Also check out Western Mountaineering bags. I have no direct experience with them, but they're regarded as the best in the industry. Pricey, but you can't go wrong with them.

Ben beat me to it again. Blast, ye brigand!

Gotta be quick, Travis. :)

Thinking about quilts — Thomas, I am not sure if quilts are optimal for you. To the extent some people prefer quilts, it's usually a yearning for less constriction. But that also means more space that your body will need to heat up.

A second consideration is that quilts are hoodless — and while you can wear a beanie — there's still going to be some inefficiency and heat loss as compared to a hooded sleeping bag — again, requiring your body to work harder to retain warmth.

So unless you find a bag just too constricting, I think you are better off sticking with it.

More space in a quilt? depends on the quilt and how you use it. Wrapped up in one of my quilts I have less space than in a regular ol' sleeping bag. But I don't like being constricted so don't typically do so – yet sleep warm down the rating (approx. 25F) of the quilt just the same. And I am a cold sleeper – or at least I get colder quicker and layer up sooner than most others I go out with.

"But I don't like being constricted so don't typically do so"

That's my point, Lori. Of course one can wrap a quilt real tight and all — but that's not how folks who dislike bags and flee to quilts would use their quilts.

It's hardly fleeing to quilts when you never used the bag as a bag. Just acknowledging there was wasted material and dispensing with it entirely. :)

If it were to get cold enough, you can bet a quilt user would do what needed to be done. Even if that means staying up all night holding the quilt in a tiny tube over them.

True, indeed.

Travis, you are right, the Pinnacle Long weighs 44 ounces (I just pulled it down and hunted up my scale because your statement got me so excited). So that bag is really a better option that I thought. Dang! I am feeling better about life already. Apparently I had weighed it along with its storage bag. Or something.

The Western Mountaineering bags are indeed legendary, but I am not sure I can justify the investment to drop 10 or 12 ounces, not that that is anything to sneeze at.

As far as quilts, it is not the desire to be loose and free, but the logic of not carrying about 1/3 of the bag just to smash it flat underneath you. The appeal of a quilt to me is the logic of letting the pad take care of keeping my backside warm and a quilt to handle the topside and the resultant weight savings, (dropping from 44 to 28 in the scenario I am contemplating and saving a whole 16 ounces!!). The lack of a hood had already entered my mind though.

A related topic (for another thread in the MYOG forum) is that an ultralight bivy could add a lot to the whole setup. It seems to me that for someone (like myself) who can manage some sewing, nothing could be easier than sewing a bivy sack, once I located a source of suitable materials. But even at 8 or 10 ounces, this is still additional weight.

Not to be "anti quilt" or anything, but one more thing to consider is that when you have the quilt draped over and across the width of the pad, the resulting "triangle" will likely have more "dead space" that your body will need to heat up constantly — as compared to a narrower bag that "hugs" your body a little bit closer.

OK, Benjamin, you are really going to make a sleeping bag convert out of me. It does make sense that a nice tight fitting bag with a hood would be warmer than a nasty drafty quilt without a hood. And the discovery that my Pinnacle is 8 ounces lighter than I thought is nice too, I can just stick with it and save some money. The Pinnacle has always been cozy, and if it really looks like it will be cold I can carry a bivy.

And nobody gave me any grief about my down mat either. A nice bunch all around. Thanks.

"And nobody gave me any grief about my down mat either."

The worst I can offer is serious mat envy :D

I'm 39 and am an Exped 7 user. That thing is nearly more comfortable than my bed! It's well worth the 32 oz in weight. (I also have the Exped inflatable pillow, but don't tell anyone.)

I vote for the Marmot Pinnacle for colder temps. I have plenty of "natural insulation," and am a warm sleeper, and I don't like using a quilt below around 30-40 F. I do use one above that though and enjoy it.

I am 6ft and for most of my adult life weighed 140lbs and shivered almost every night. I made a few changes that made sleeping outside enjoyable. 1. I eat high energy food before I go to bed. The dreams are intense but it helps keep the internal fires stoked. 2. Instead of pj’s I sleep in my clothes, a beanie and my down jacket. This saves weight, adds padding and warmth. 3. I went to a bag/quilt that has less dead space. I now have less air around me that I have to warm up. These changes have allowed me to switch to a light weight quilt and have been keeping warm at night. I know these changes are pretty basic but they did wonders for me. Good luck I hope you find answers.

Thomas,

If you are partial to the Marmot line, the 15F Helium is 31 oz in regular.

The only knock that the Helium has is that it is considered to have a roomy cut.

I have a 2007 Helium Eq that I have used down to 5F with lots of layers of clothing.

Like you, I am skinny (5'6" & 145lbs) and a cold sleeper.

It is an expensive bag, but very warm.

One advantage you have with the Marmot line is that they now follow the European Standard of testing for warmth and it can be said that the Marmot line currently is spot on with their temperature ratings.

Recently, the 30F Hydrogen was reviewed on BPL and was the heaviest of the bunch or just heavy, but was the warmest of the group reviewed.

Lots of good choices out there that have been mentioned.

Interestingly, I just purchased a JRB Sierra Sniveler Quit, but I have yet to use it in the field to be able to give you any useful feed back….it is my 1st quilt.

My opinion from my research would be that if you don't use a bivy bag, I think the quilt is going to leave you colder than a sleeping bag.

Hope this helps and let us know what you decide.

P.S. I use a GG Torso pad and a 1/8" thinlight sleeping pad…my thoughts, are go with whatever pad is going to keep you warm and give you a good night sleep! Hike your own hike as they say…

-Tony

Thomas, the thing is, Ben clearly has had different experiences with quilts, or possibly no experience, I don't know which.

You don't have to get cold with a quilt or I wouldn't be using them. I did get cold with sleeping bags, but that was likely because I had the wrong bag in the first place – and because I refused to use the hood since as an active side sleeper I was smothering myself in it. Also, I was frequently twisting the bag to the point of compressing the insulation and waking up trying to get out of it.

Since it doesn't sound like you want to buy into quilts, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise, but there are legions of happy quilt users who use them into below freezing temps successfully and comfortably. There are also a lot of people using sleeping bags and I don't doubt they are also just as happy.

@TL

Not to steal a thread but Travis, you wrote:

"I just switched to a custom down mat by Kooka Bay. The beauty of it is that Its lighter than a Neoair for the same size, with twice the R-value!"

The Kooka website is pretty minimal and I can't see how you are getting a lighter, higher r-value than the neoair. Can you provide details of the custom mat, dimension, r-value, weight and price? I am interested.

Thanks,

PW

"First some background. I am the coldest sleeper in the known universe. I am 55+ years old and skinny as a rail with no body fat, and when I go to sleep, my metabolism apparently just shuts off."

Since no one else has jumped up on this soap box, I'll take it.

Incorporate being well hydrated and well fed when you turn in. Yes you might have to get up at 2am but if you get 4 good hours on either side, that will be worth it.

Stash a couple of Power/Balance/Cliff bars or small Snickers bars in an Odor Proof bag for snacks at 2am and 4am. (Pick things that won't shed a bunch pieces when you open and eat them in the dark.)

On another note, if you can tolerate wool, consider Icebreaker for wool tops and bottom. I found them far warmer than Capilene, and less odoriferous as well.

Paul,
I haven't actually received the mat yet, but it is basically the exact same thing as a BA Air Core, with down instead of synthetic insulation. Bender is making it out of a lightweight 30D heat sealable nylon (the material on his website is 50 or 70D I believe. The stuff I'm getting is top-secret! Well, not really, but not too many people know about it). It will have the exact same dimensions of the BA 60x20x2.5 mummy, with 4 ounces of down. He assures me that 4 ounces will give me an R-value of 5+. Douglas Ide has one, and he says its really comfy and could feel the heat radiate back to him. The pad will weigh around 6.7 ounces empty. Add 4 ounces of down, and we get 10.7 ounces! I sure as hell will be reporting back on it as soon as I get it.

If I'm correct, I saw Bender mention once that he likes custom stuff. Shoot him an email and see what you can work out.

As far as price goes, I'll let Bender quote you. Since its custom work I don't want to be blabbing prices when maybe I shouldn't? Also, we had an odd arrangement since I already had some of the 30D heat sealable material that I sent to him to be made into a mat. Sorry!

He'll be upfront and personable, and answer any questions you have!

Lori:

I have not used quilts. However, just looking at the logic (and reading user feedback)…

1. A quilt draped over the user and across the width of his or her pad — and strapped underneath — will encompass more space than a snug sleeping bag.

2. I know many people are happy with quilts — heating up the bit of extra space is not a problem for many and I can see why they might enjoy the extra space — but OP specifically mentioned that he is a skinny, cold sleeper with trouble heating up space around him. To me, a snug (but not tight) sleeping bag with a well-designed hood will likely keep him warmer than a quilt.

3. Most happy quilt users limit the use of their quilts to around freezing — some going lower — but NOT down to truly cold environs. That quilt users switch to heavier bags rather than heavier quilts reinforces the points up above — that quilts are inherently less efficient than well-designed and well-fitting bags. The trade off is less efficiency for more "thrashing around" space. Works in 3-seasons, but not so well in true winter.

Yes, there are happy campers with both options. I myself still look into quilts from time to time (I view myself as an "average" sleeper). But I wrote my earlier comments with OP specifically in mind: a skinny, cold sleeper thinking about using a quilt not because the bag is too constricting (as in your case) but simply hoping to shave a few ounces. Methinks if he goes that route, he likely will need a heavier quilt than most — and thus negating the weight saving.

I'm also skinny (143 and 5'10"). I have an overstuffed Specialist quilt from Nunatak (16 oz.) that I have used down to the mid-twenties.

The secret: When the temperature dips below 30, I put a Heatsheets emergency bivy over top of my quilt. They are roomy enough to fit over the quilt without constricting it, and they hold in the heat very well. They are just as tough as mylar quilts, but don't make so much noise. In the morning, they stuff right back into their tiny stuff sack with no trouble.

At 3.5 oz and about 10 bucks, you can't go wrong. I keep expecting the thing to tear, but it comes out of the stuff sack in all its wrinkled glory intact and ready to use.

Keep warm,

Stargazer

Stargazer:

Curious, if your quilt keeps you warm to 30 — why not just put on some clothing (e.g. an insulation jacket, etc.) — for an easy 5F boost to the mid-twenties?

I would get the quilt wet with insensible perspiration if I did that. The one attempt at throwing something on the quilt during a tarp/pad on the ground night, I used a Driducks (supposedly breathable) poncho – the underside of the poncho was wet.

Not going to get into a minor war over quilts, here, but there is less room in my quilt than there was for me in a regular sleeping bag. YMMV. The difference for me is being able to spread out or tuck in however I need to to stay warmer or just warm, and the lack of a zipper to stick or get in my way. My quilt weighs 20 oz and I have been comfortable in midweight base layer in the low 20F range. No straps, no bivy, cold spots only once in a while when an elbow slides off the pad.

And no, very cold weather camping is very different – that's when the winter underquilt goes on the hammock, the extra layers of clothes go on before bed, and the top cover goes on the hammock. No one goes out in colder weather with less bulk, no matter what you use.

Benjamin,

>>the resulting "triangle" will likely have more "dead space" that your body will need to heat up constantly<<

I am about to embark on a MYOG SUL Quilt Project. From what I have seen while researching this project if the quilt is properly designed and used there will be very little "resulting triangle" to keep heated up as you put it.

Quilts or top bags as some of them are called employ a snap and a drawstring at the top to cinch up the quilt at or around the shoulder and neck level.

Some but not all employ knee high sewn in foot boxes. Also used on some quilts are adjustable "girth straps" that draw the quilt in to the body. If the size and length are correct and the quilt is used correctly with a good insulating pad there should not be a very large "dead space" to keep heated up.

Jay Ham's article in Make Your Own Gear: "Transforming a Mummy Sleeping Bag into an Arc Top Bag" illustrates what I described above. Here is the link to Jay's article.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/make_your_own_gear_mummy_to_arc_conversion.html

Party On ! 2010

Newton