Hubba Hubba HP vs Carbon Reflex 2

Will has an in-depth review of the Carbon Reflex here:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/msr_carbon_reflex2_tent_review.html

I have one of the HP coming any time now. (It is in edit. Poor editor…)

One more thing to think about is that the CR is not freestanding.

I'm not 100% sure what the difference between freestanding and non-freestanding is to be honest. I've always had cheapish dome tents previously. Sorry for my ignorance. I read something about it briefly but it wasn't very clear.

Thanks :)

Benen

Freestanding means that the tent canopy does not need to be staked down to stay up. Usually this is done by aluminum tent poles. Your "cheapish" dome tents are freestanding. However, this is misleading. With the exception of 1 or 2 tents, you still will need stakes for the vestibule (the little part you don't sleep in, but store stuff like shoes). And also, many can attest that NOT staking down ANY tent is a recipe for disaster. In high winds, and even light to moderate winds, a tent can turn into a kite or tumbleweed very quickly.

Non-freestanding means that it is absolutely necessary to stake the shelter down in order for it to stand and/or take shape.

that's what I thought but like you said. You said, you would have to be mad not to stake it because of wind, as you say, the vestibule needs staking anyways so I guess that's an irrelivent factor in my decision. I'm more concerned about the carbon poles and extra mesh of the cr2 vs the strength, warmth and extra weight of the hubba hubba hp.

Just to clarify from the original text and for those unfamiliar w/the tents: The Hubba Hubba is basically all mesh, and the H.H. HP is mostly nylon. The HP version is actually a few ounces lighter than the standard HH.

The weight difference between the HH HP and CR2 is basically because the CR2 is using less pole length overall, fewer junctions, and carbon poles. The CR2 also only has one good door, but retains the dual vestibule setup. Setting them up side by side, it seems that the CR2 floor has slightly less area than the HH although both list as having the same area; the CR2 floor seems to have a bit of an upturned "belly" to it. I'm generally not fond of composite poles, but if I were going to trust any the CR2 poles seem pretty beefy.

The HP would likely be better in high winds, but I don't think most people would test that limit. I wouldn't count on your tent adding a significant amount of warmth; count on your insulation for that! That said, on blustery cold days, yeah, the HP'll be a few degrees warmer inside.

I was originally all for the hh hp but im tending towards the cr2 now haha. i hate decisions!

I owed a CR2 and it was my primary tent last year. The carbon fiber poles of the CR2 seem great. I wouldn't be worried about these breaking unless you're using in extreme winter conditions.

The non-freestanding nature of the CR2 was generally not an issue. The only time it was of concern was when I was camping on sand and using stakes that were not intended for sand use. I ended up putting rocks on the stakes so they would stay in.

The CR2 is obviously more expensive.

Supposedly the width of the CR2 is narrower than the HP despite the specifications being the same. The CR2 is about 42" wide at the narrowest point (middle) so it's just wide enough for two pads. The HP is supposedly closer to the specifications.

The back vestibule of the CR2 is hard to use because it's only accessible via a vertical zip. You basically need to pass stuff through a slit, so putting packs in here is pretty much impossible. The main vestible by the door is a good size though so this wasn't really a concern.

For 3 season use, I don't think it's significant advantage to have the slighter warmer HP. Especially since you said that you'd normally use it with the fly, footprint and bug tent anyways. I would just get the CR2 and with the weight you save you can bring slightly more clothes if you're going on a really cold trip. If you're going to try to use this as a serious 4 season tent then the HP is probably the way to go though. The aluminum poles would bend instead of crack, staking isn't mandatory and the fabric inner would be advantageous.

Benen,

if you are looking at these two tents you should definitely also look into the Big Agnes Fly Creek UL2 Tent.

it's similar but lighter and less expensive the the carb reflex.

Benen,
The carbon pole is the Easton FX, significantly stronger than than other carbon poles, but significantly weaker than the heavier DAC featherlight poles on the H and HP. Yet due to other design components, there is not too much weight penalty for the increased strength of the DACS. Also, note that the HP has a larger fly than the Hubba, and has windows, plus fabric instead of netting on much of the inner canopy, all of which add weight. Before deciding, I recommend weighing the different models before buying, rather than relying on the mfg. Note that weights of models can change from year to year, and from tent to tent.
For me it would depend on how long I planned to be in the bush. If you intend to be a long distance hiker, and will be out there for long periods, you might want something as bombproof as possible given your max weight limit. Saving a few ounces is not worth a blown over and broken tent, especially if the weather is rotten and likely to induce hypothermia, which can be quite deadly. As Henry Shires has mentioned on this site, four ounces is nothing more than the weight of carrying a liter bottle about 1/4 full. On the other hand, if you are just going to do overnights with the tent, and never be too far from the nearest trailhead, especially the one where your car is, you can probably just bail out if the tent is damaged beyond quick field repair.
So, the amount of tent weight you tolerate may depend on what you will be doing.
Once you have honed your skills, and survived a few of what Roger Caffin calls, "when things go wrong," (see his article on this site), then may be a good time to experiment with less durable ultra lightweight shelters, many of which, for example, will burn quickly when exposed to flame (there is an interesting video on U-Tube).
As for "freestanding," I think it depends on how much real added stability it creates. On some designs, such as the Hilleberg Suolo, all the way back to the early Jansport 3-pole domes, it provides great stability, especially if stakes pull out. With other designs, like the Hubbas, you still have to run guys to both sides of the arch pole to keep it laterally stable, and to front and back apexes to keep it from being blown forward or backwards. So "freestanding" becomes of little value if it is critical that the stakes hold anyway in a gale to keep the tent up. Yet for some reason, I still like the freestanding feature of the Hubbas. There is something to being able to set up the tent in the living room when you first get it. I had to tear myself away from these irrational feelings to switch to a Scarp that depends on a minimum of four stakes to stay up, wind or no, because logically, I know the Scarp will provide better reliability and protection than the freestanding, carbon pole dome I was using. (I usually camp in the bush, away from other folks and their fires, and do not camp in winter, so use gas canister, not liquid fuel stoves, that are more prone to flare.)
It is hard to be helpful here, because there are so many factors to balance, but hope these thoughts are of some use to you.

The Fly Creek UL2 looks like a nice tent. The only concern I have is that the heavily sloped sides mean you hit the mesh when you sit up, and your sleeping bag will unavoidably be hitting the mesh at the foot area if you have two in the tent. The CR2 and HP aren't the largest tents but the side walls are vertical so the interior volume is quite good for the amount of floor area. It's easy for two people to sit up.

Besides that, I love the door at the end instead of the side and the 2.58 lbs trail weight (BPL measured).

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=28623

Benen, I would check out the Tarptent Scarp 2. It weighs 54 ounces, so a little heavier than the CR2 or BA Fly Creek 2, though lighter than the Hubba Hubba HP. It offers a couple of distinct advantages IMO.

One, it has two big doors both with vestibules. The fly is designed so these vestibules can often be left partially open, even in light rain. Two doors makes a tent much more liveable for two occupants, and also adds great conveniences. You can store packs and gear in one, and use the other for cooking. If the wind changes, you still have an entry on the leeward side. Watch the sunset from one door and the sunrise from the other.

The Scarp 2 is modular. The tent can be purchased with an all-mesh inner, or a mostly-fabric inner. If you have both, then your bases are covered in terms of matching the shelter to the expected conditions.

Most important IMO, the Scarp 2 sets up fly first. What I mean is the pole sleeve is in the fly; it is erected and staked, then the inner tent is attached form inside. Most mainstream tents are set up by inserting the poles into sleeves or clips in the tent's non-waterproof body. In heavy rain or snow, this allows the inner tent to become wet before the fly can be put on. Being able to pitch the fly first is also advantageous for rest stops during cold wet weather. You can set it up quick, and it gives you a sheltered place to fix lunch, dry out, and warm up. Priceless when the conditions are nasty.

Price is US$325, so quite a bit cheaper than the MSR options.

If you're looking for more space, the Scarp 2 is a great way to go.

It's a bit of hassle and hard to explain here, but you can basically set up the CR2 with the fly going up first and then the inner if the conditions require it. I haven't had a situation where I had to set it up like this, but I did take it down like this once. You can unclip and drop the inner net tent off of the poles and disconnect it from the stakes at the four corners, so it's only still attached to the main arch pole at the center of both ends. This allows you to fold the inner tent into thirds so it's a long skinny strip with only the floor exposed so the inner tent won't get wet. From there you take off the fly and roll everything up.

Price is US$325, so quite a bit cheaper than the MSR options.
Yes, but only sorta. You virtually always need to pay full retail when buying a new Tarptent since you can only get them from Henry and he doesn't really have sales. With MSR (and other major manufacturers) it's easy to find a deal on one so you never pay retail. I paid about $350 for my CR2 and it's not hard to match that. There's always new ones on eBay under $400 Buy it Now.

backcountrygear.com has them on sale for $399

Dan i completely agree. in theory two people not being able to sit up is not good . in practice, i camp with my husband all the time, and i'm the first to kick him out of our "spacious" tarpent DR because sitting together in any kind of tent with this kind of space is really really a challenging thing, and not something you look forward to when you are trying to get dressed, get your gear ready, etc etc. it's actually a funny thing to do – to coexist in this small space. But doesn't the FC UL2 have a tie out at that area to help with tension and have it wider?

I do recommend Tarptent Double Rainbow though. Not double wall, but definitely feels and acts like it. It's light, packable, simple, easy to set up, it's spacious – what else can i say? a perfect lightweight shelter for two.

Elena:

I am a late riser… I knew there was a reason for staying single! :)

I've been very happy w/ my CR2 for two person trips (two persons being my wife and myself- might be a little too cozy for other combinations :) ) The main vestibule is sufficiently large for two packs, we tend to use the rear one for boots.

Only one main door does provide for the person at the rear of the tent to be a little nimble when needing out, that person is my wife- not me. Plenty of head room w/ both of us in the tent. We've used in some pretty adverse conditions (no winter use yet) and it's performed flawlessly. The double wall design really minimizes any condensation concerns.

Setup is pretty straightforward and pretty quick- like Dan said it can pitched fly first if needed. With the footprint can be pitched w/o the tent.

I got lucky last year and scored a CR2 for $300, odds not good of that happening again. It's definitely an expensive tent, but it does perform as advertised.

well i still have no idea! haha. Thanks all for your detailed responses. I guess i'll just have to read more and make a decision.
I'm sure the tarptent shelters are great too and i would definitely consider one if not for the fact that i would have to place a seperate order to the main one and the cost of shipping to australia would probably make the tarptent cost more than an msr one. Most shipping costs are $60 – $80. Which leaves me still deciding between the two msr tents.
I guess its not the end of the world if i decide i would have preferred a different one to the one I end up getting. They all sound like great tents and there probably isn't a bad choice.

I'll let you all know how i go!

Thanks again :)

Benen

Hi Benen,

I know what you mean about making decisions. :) I have a hard time doing that myself. That's, partially, the reason why I have both tents. I first had Hubba Hubba and I absolutely love it. It sets up very quickly (easier than Carbon Reflex), very roomy and very usable. Double door/vestibule is very convinient.

I bought CR2 b/c I thought it would be exactly the same as HH but a pound lighter. While I do like the weight savings of the CR2, it's not as user friendly as HH. CR2 is not freestanding, and therefore requires you to stake out the floor first before you can rise the poles. This make set up more difficult. It's a significantly smaller tent overall as well, which could be a problem for comfort. There is just one door with a smaller vestibule than HH, but that's not too big of a problem. The vestibule on the other side is even smaller with virtually no access to it from inside the tent (only a small vertical slit in the tent wall). Hardly usable. You _can_ put a pack there, but you have to access it from the outside, put the pack in, then stake it out again. Not user friendly at all. It's quite a bit narrower than HH and corners of the tent tend to rise up into the air b/c the staking out doesn't hold them 100% flat to the ground.

To make it simple for you:

1) Buy Hubba Hubba if you want easy set up and comfort at the cost of extra weight.

2)
Buy Carbon Reflex if you are an ultralight freak who wants to save a pound at the expense of usability.

Since I can see that you're a beginner in this, it is my recommendation to get the HH. It will be a good friend and won't give you any trouble in the field.

I had to take 2 Hubba Hubbas back to REI one had a leaky floor. (They changed floor materials next year) so I got another one. This one went back because the tent poles bent from regular set up.

I then found Nemo products and have been a huge fanboy.

Don't hesitate to get the Nemo Andi at the same weight as the HH HP you get 9in more width (it's 50 in middle 59 at ends) 9in longer 2 inches taller and you get a MUCH better quality product. Ask anyone that owns one its like having a 700 dollar ArcTeryx jacket.

REI had it listed as a "mountaineering" tent before they sold out. This thing is bombproof. But for summer the entire front wall is mesh. I love this tent!!!!

"I'm sure the tarptent shelters are great too and i would definitely consider one if not for the fact that i would have to place a seperate order to the main one and the cost of shipping to australia would probably make the tarptent cost more than an msr one"

Isn't Franco an Aussie? Or have I gotten his location mixed up with someone else's? He's quite helpful, when he's around. I imagine he does go out wandering in the bush now and again, though ;)

I have a Scarp1, which I'm quite pleased with… and my first attempt at pitching it was in my living room. My little feline supervisors seemed to think it was rather amusing to watch me knocking things over with the long poles while threading them into position… it's MUCH easier to pitch outdoors because of that ;)

With the crossing poles it's free-standing, and even though the directions say to stake it down and THEN add the crossing poles, it's not actually hard to pitch it without staking it. I've done this a couple of times; rather than staking it down to pitch it in the soft ground, I used the crossing poles and then added anchors.

I would never advocate NOT staking a tent down just because it's freestanding, but I have to admit that being freestanding makes it easier to pitch at times. As I get better at selecting camp sites and securing tents, it will probably even out.

"Don't hesitate to get the Nemo Andi at the same weight as the HH HP you get 9in more width (it's 50 in middle 59 at ends) 9in longer 2 inches taller and you get a MUCH better quality product."

I contacted Nemo awhile back because when I got into a Nano it was much smaller than advertised. They indicated that they measure the dimensions from outside the tent because this is the industry standard. I don't know about the standard, but I do know that measuring from the outside means that the slope of the walls will take out meaningful usable space.

The Andi also requires setting up the poles inside the shelter, which is a major pain the rump.

It is also single walled and will not manage condensation as well as a double walled shelter with a mesh inner.

It also only has one door and one vestibule.

On paper, the Andi simply doesn't measure up.

I believe MSR measures from the outside as well (it is the industry standard). Even if they didn't Andi is a larger tent.

Also, Andi uses external pole sleaves. Not internal as the Nano.

As for condensation, I think it manages it better than a HH. The fly on the HH would always be wet when I packed it since it was a pain to use a towel to wipe it down. As for any of my 3 Nemo tents I've yet to see a drop inside. This includes sharing my GoGo with a 70lb pit bull for a pillow while fully zipped up. You could definitely tell it was several degrees warmer in our Bivy than outside.

I think for the weight you get much more tent. I wouldn't hesitate taking my Andi or even Morpho (heavy but can sleep 3) up to Camp Muir if I were expecting weather. I would definitely NOT want to bring the CR and wouldn't be that thrilled in an HP.

Having said that, summer time is also great in an Andi. You get a whole wall of mesh for bug protection if you need it and if rain comes in you don't have to mess with a fly you just use the zipper and you're done.

As for a choice between the HP or CR its quite simple:

Get the CR if you want to save weight at cost of longer set up and potential durability.

Get the HP if you want a tent that will be a tiny bit warmer in the winter breeze since all the heat doesn't get sucked out. It's also faster to set up.

Interesting about the pole set-up. So they are external to the interior? There is a separate fly – how do the poles get 'set'?

Do you know the breathability of the Osmo fabric as say, compared to an Epic or eVENT? Thanks,

David, oh man! I love it so much more than Nano. I hated internal set up.

Look on their site at pics of tent. See the black sleaves on the outside? You just insert 2 poles corner to corner, they dead end and clip other end in to grommet – done!

The vestibule rolls up out of the way so when you need it it just zips down. I love it for the PNW.

These are the old numbers for OSMO. They changed fabric Manufacturers this year so they said it was a bit better than the old numbers with a much better hand feel.

NEMO OSMO fabric:
Weight: 2.22 Oz/yd2
Water Vapor Transmission: 5618 g/24h/m2
Hydrostatic Resistance (Water Proofness) 123 psi