Sleep systems for solo or couples use

[Derek B.]

Hi,

I am pretty new here, have only posted a bit so far, but am slowly making the transition from heavy to lighter/UL gear. Since most of my tripping is by canoe (I live in Ontario, Canada), I can afford to deal with the weight for now and am trying to buy top quality pieces gradually, rather than getting a whole set of cheaper gear all at once. So far I've tried to take things one system at a time, so I've now got my 3-season and winter active wear systems dialed in, and am now looking at other areas. (I have been slowly saving up for a UL kevlar canoe, but that is a separate budget item). Until now, I've been holding out on sleeping gear for a few reasons. First, I was interested to read Will's current report series, which now that it is coming out, is confirming some of my own research (which is nice). Second, though, I am interested in a system that has a fair degree of versatility (to handle different kinds of uses), and am looking for some input from others out there who are facing similar challenges.

First, I will be taking three different kinds of trips. One involves summer and warmer spring/fall canoe trips with my wife and two daughters. Until discovering BPL last fall, I had not thought of taking notes on temps when camping (though I will be doing so now!), but I am pretty sure we have not faced temperatures lower than 10C/50F on these trips, though it would be smart to plan for 5C/41F to give some insurance range. To date, my wife and I have been fine with two older 1.5" thermarests strapped together, and two older MEC synthetic rectangular bags zipped together (one is rated 0C/32F and one is -5C/23F; from experience I can say these ratings are "optimistic," but they have worked for our needs). In this situation, we are usually wearing just light base layers, and sometimes I will unzip my side when it is too hot.

The second type of trip are spring/fall trips, usually done with my brother or another tripping partner, where temp ranges have gone down to 0C/32F. I would like to be okay handing temps down to at least -5C/23F and ideally lower. I have been fine with the 0C bag using an older short model thermarest prolite pad (1") and wearing base layers, a fleece jacket, and rain gear on the coldest nights, so I am okay with using insulating gear to supplement my bag. (I plan to buy a UL down jacket – so far leaning toward Montbell UL Down Inner – but this is perhaps a topic for another post.)

The third range I would like to be open to are winter trips, and this is where I have no experience whatsoever. I just bought a pair of Northern Lites Elites and am hoping to do at least one 2-3 day snowshoe trip next winter (with friends who are experienced winter campers, though not UL by any stretch), but obviously will need to buy some gear for that first. I am open to renting at first, as I've seen some people suggest this for people who are new to winter camping. Here is the question I have: I am wondering whether it is possible to combine 3-season gear into a winter kit to save on costs (e.g. by supplementing a 3-season bag with warmer clothing, an overbag, or a quilt), or whether I should be looking at getting dedicated winter gear for this type of use. Winter temps around here can fall to -20C/-4F regularly and occasionally to -30C/-22F, so I don't want to mess around on this one! I enjoy cold weather outdoor sports and regularly run and snowshoe in -20C/-4F weather (plus wind chill) or colder, so I am pretty sure I will enjoy winter camping. However, the price factor is an important consideration, and I'd like to get it right the first time rather than buying and selling a whole bunch of gear.

So, to recap: I am looking for a high quality 3-season bag or quilt that could a) be supplemented with down clothing for colder spring and fall temps, b) mate with another bag/quilt for two-person use, mainly in the summer, and c) perhaps be combined with this second bag/quilt + down clothing for winter use. Alternately, I would scrap idea c) and save up for a dedicated winter bag and rent in the meantime, if that is the consensus out there.

I have read all the posts I can find on bags vs. quilts and still don't know what to think. The choice between the two seems to be a subjective affair. If I were looking just for me, I'd probably be weighing the choice between a WM Summerlite, and a JRB No Sniveller (or perhaps getting both, and combine them for winter use). Nunatak looks great and obviously comes highly rated, but is too pricey for me at this time. I also don't feel ready to MYO anything at this stage – perhaps in the future but I have enough projects on the go for now. I like the idea of a quilt such as the No Sniveller for versatility, but am not convinced it has the edge as it does not seem to offer any real weight savings over the WM bag. Just from experiments in my living room (pinning a regular bag to size and lying on my pad), I'm pretty sure I would be okay with a quilt for myself if someone could sell me on the idea, but would have to try this outdoors for a night to be sure.

However (and this is a very important consideration), I am not sure whether my wife would be into the quilt thing. I have also read all the posts I can find on two-person sleep systems, and am still up in the air on what to do. My wife HATES to be cold, and on many nights I can be a restless sleeper (I often have restless legs, and sometimes I have to sit up or shift positions a lot until they calm down, so I would worry about subjecting her to drafts, or stealing all the covers inadvertently). I like sharing a bag with her, and drafts have not been a problem for summer camping, but that is partly because with two rectangular bags zipped together, there is a lot more material keeping her warm, and the double-bag goes around her so I can't pull the covers away.

So far, these are the options I can think of:

– Two 0C mummy bags (currently looking at the Summerlite, like everyone else I suppose) that can be used separately, zipped together for two people, or used with one as a quilt over the other) for solo winter use. My concern is that this option would get very hot for me, and that it would be more difficult to ventilate, since the bags are zipped together in the centre (she sleeps cold and I sleep warm). I have never tried zipping two mummy bags together, and would be interested in feedback on this (I suppose I should take a trip to the local MEC and try it out, but have not yet had the chance).

– Two 0C quilts that can be used alone, mated together and tucked around us, or used one on top of the other for solo winter use (not sure which models to look at that would do this). This would solve the ventilation option and perhaps the stealing-the-covers option. Not sure if there are other issues I would want to think about though.

– Sleeping separately is also an option, but I'd rather not, for reasons you can probably appreciate. Plus, if I want to eventually encourage her to camp with me in colder weather, I figure sharing my body heat will be a distinct plus in those cases!

I think that is about it. Sorry for the extremely long post, but I hope the information is helpful to understanding my needs. I am not sure whether I am trying to do too many things at once here. Any advice will be much appreciated!

[Derek B.]

Just to add to the above, one of the threads I found helpful was this one.

Lot of good ideas there, but most involve having separate 2-person bags or quilts. What I'd like for my situation though is a system that integrates items that can be used solo as well. I thought Dave's idea at the bottom of the thread (sewing an extender piece for turning a single bag into a two-person top bag) was interesting, as it would allow me to get two bags (one 0C and one for winter) and swap them interchangeably. I think I could handle that level of MYOG probably :) I'd be interested in feedback on this or other similar ideas in addition to those I posted above.

[Shawn Peyton]

Derek, others will go into this in more detail but just for the record:

My fiance and I use the WM Alder MF (I think that's the name now, it was the Aspen MF) coupled with the summer coupler. We tend to be fine with this system May thru October canoe tripping/backpacking. She's a cold sleeper and I'm a warm sleeper but it still works out wonderfully. The summer coupler isn't exactly light but the two together are still lighter than (mostly) taking seperate bags. We also don't want to sleep seperatly because…………yea what you implied. hahaha Pretty much all of our tripping is done in the Superior National Forest, BWCA, Quetico, etc. We're not really big into winter camping so I don't know how low you could push the "summer coupler". I have had the bag down to it's 20 degree rating and been toasty but once again I'm a warm sleeper.

Picking up a Nova Craft Prospector 16 Kev/Spec this weekend at Canoecopia. Yea that put all other gear investments back awhile. lol

[Jeremy Greene]

In my opinion you need 2 systems:
-solo quilt of your choice which you can supplement with warm clothing.
-dedicated "hot as hell" 2-person sleeping BAG with 2 separate neck openings leading to 2-way 3/4 zips on each side, which she can supplement with warm clothing. This does not exist on the market, but I need one too.

Maybe this will be our next project after we sort out the down pants. Good luck for now.

[Lynn Tramper]

Easy solution. Get two Summerlites that have matching zippers. For warmer trips you can zip just the top zipper together and use it as a huge quilt. If it gets colder you zip the bottom as well so you have a double bag. For solo winter trips you bundle into one of the Summerlites and throw the other on over the top of you as a quilt.

[Jim Carr]

My wife and I have the WM Aspen with summer coupler and Exped downmats and love it! I also use just the bag for solo trips and have been down to 30F with no problem. I also take a Montbell Alpine Light jacket just in case.

[Derek B.]

Thanks for all the ideas. I had not thought about the summer coupler system. Although it seems a bit heavy – as much as just bringing another Summerlite … but there might be a MYO option that weighs less. I'll have to think about that.

Lynn, this seems like a workable solution, and very simple and versatile. I'll look into it.

So are bags my best bet then? Anyone want to try to sell me on getting a quilt?

[Tjaard Breeuwer]

I have never used a real quilt so I can't 'sell' you on it, but if you want to do it and are unsure of your wifes reaction you could combine it with a double bivy, effectively turning it into a two person bag.

We use a rectangular bag zipped to a double pad sleeve, it is a MUCH colder sleep system than that same bag on it's own, even with 2 people in it. Most likely because of the huge top opening dumping warm air.

I am a fan of using 3 season bags in winter, I'd rather carry and buy warmer clothing than a warmer bag. Basically the function of the bag is to provide the extra insulation needed to go from evening/morning sitting to sleeping. This differential is about the same in winter as it is in fall.

[Jeff Wright]

Hi Derek,

Nice to hear another Canadian is getting into ultralight gear. First I would like to give you a bit of background information. I am very warm sleeper and my wife is a cold sleeper. For example on a typical summer trip in the Rockies (around 0 celcius as a low) I will have my W.M. Summerlite draped over me like a quilt (wearing base layer clothing, socks and skull cap) for most of the night. My wife on the other hand will be wearing similar clothing but will have her W.M. Ultralight (-7 celcius rating) fully zipped up with the hood cinched in full mummy mode right from the get go. She says I am a heater. I think that is a compliment.

A few years ago I was convinced that the 2-person quilt would be a good idea for our three season outings. We could save a little weight and she could share my heat. We had slept at times with two MEC bags with opposite zippers zipped together and found this to work alright except for the fact that there can be a fair bit of draft through the combined opening. So on paper a quilt seemed like a better option. I ordered a two person quilt kit from Ray Jardine and sewed it up. Like any MYOG project I wanted it to work.

… but it just did not work for us. Here is what I found:

1) One side of our body was always too warm while the other side was chilled. It was not uncommon to be over heating between us and chilled along the perimeter side of the quilt.

2) Very drafty when one person shifts position. As one person shifts position it would generally dislodge the quilt along the opposite perimeter and billow cold air between us. This was with both of us being careful about how we shifted or rolled.

If you are a restless sleeper I hope your wife is a patient person. If not I would suspect that you are going to hear about it… all night long… but hey you will likely be awake anyways as parts of you will be too cold, others too warm and you will be playing tug-of-war to keep the quilt in place. Maybe I am being a little dramatic, but in the end we never use the quilt together anymore and have been very happy with our W.M. bags with can be zipped together or opened up in quilt mode and used much like two person quilts until we get serious about sleeping, at which point we zip up in our own bags and enjoy a good rest.

A final disclaimer: 1) I have used the same quilt car camping on my own and found no issues with drafts as it is much easier roll or shift with the quilt without dislodging it. So I am not saying quilts do not work. I think they work well for solo use in 3 season conditions. When I think about it, I have spent many comfortable hours of my time sleeping under mummy bags opened up like quilts before I even considered using a "quilt". 2) My wife and I used the quilt under a tarp, not in a tent. Obviously there is going to be more air circulation under a tarp. A fully enclosed shelter might help with some of the draft. Maybe.

Hope this helps. Good luck with your decision.

[Derek B.]

Thanks Jeff, those are very helpful comments! It seems that perhaps the two bags option might be my best bet, since I can anticipate some unhappy situations with a quilt, and since have historically been fine with two bags so far.

[Jeff Wright]

If you are leaning towards two bags I can definitely strongly endorse the W.M. summerlite and ultralite as a good combination for the two of you. The ultralite is a little more money but has way more loft. Your wife will sleep warm on 3 season trips (happy wife happy life) and suddenly you will have two sleeping bags of different ratings at your disposal. I am sure she will let you borrow it as long as you always maintain that it is "her" sleeping bag. And really, who doesn't need a quiver of sleeping bags. Down the road if you happen to come across a good deal on a dedicated winter bag -15 celcius or colder then you will have the entire range of temperatures covered very well.

Speaking of deals.. I noticed you said that you were going to be looking at down jackets at some point. I bought a Eddie Bauer first ascent down sweater and I love it. You may have read the recent review here on BPL about this jacket. It is regular 199 and I paid 160 earlier this winter. Not bad I thought at the time. I was in a local Eddie Bauer store yesterday and noticed that they have it on sale for %50 off. $100 for a down jacket of this quality is a steal.

Just thought while I was spending your money on sleeping bags I could splash out a little on clothing too. Somebody has to do something for the economy.

Have a great day.

Jeff

[Lynn Tramper]

+1 Jeff's observations on the pitfalls of sharing a quilt. Sounds good in theory, but unless you both have similar sleep habits, it's bound to end badly.

[Derek B.]

Thanks to both of you for the really helpful comments. From what you are saying, it's becoming clear that the quilt idea will not work for my needs, which is good to know.

Also, the idea of buying two bags with different temp ratings is interesting. It seems like a good idea (though pricier than my original thoughts – but hey Jeff, it sure is easier to spend someone else's money than your own! :)) Here is the catch: if I want to use these two bags for winter, by sleeping in one and using the other as a quilt, the weights start to climb up. Two Summerlites will weigh 38 oz.; a Summerlite and an Ultralite will weigh 48 oz. From some rough calculations on this thread (which I'd love somebody to check and correct if I am wrong), it seems that two Summerlites will get me close to the temp rating of a Versalite. Why not just get a Summerlite and a Versalite then, and use the Versalite alone in winter, the Summerlite in spring/fall, or both when camping with two? I suppose I have to weigh where I want to be saving weight: in the summer (if so, get two Summerlites, and use both in winter), or in the winter (if so, get a Summerlite and a Versalite, and use the Versa in winter). Either way, I am not sure what is the advantage of going with an Ultralite – perhaps the value would lie in the original idea of convincing my wife to camp in the fall with me.

Thoughts?

[Roger Caffin]

At home our bed and our (home) quilt are wide enough that we can sleep together or apart easily. It's worth remembering that many people DO sleep under a quilt at home: if it works at home it should work in a tent.

My wife and I use two light quilts for 3-seasons, but not joined up. If she gets a bit cold she snuggles up to me. (Who's complaining?) By having separate quilts each of us can keep the neck region under control to limit drafts. That's crucial.

Yes, we did try a (very expensive) double sleeping bag way back in the past – wonderful bag except for the big draft down the middle between us. Not enough slack to allow the draft to be blocked.

If we are out with just the light quilts and it gets very cold (like -7 C) then we do take special steps to be comfortable. I lay my wife's quilt over the two of us already snuggled up, with all our feet in the footbox, then I lay my quilt over the top, again hooking the footbox over the end. This effectively gives us a quilt of double the down weight, plus each of us has a built-in heating element next to us. The footbox arrangement is vital: it keeps the bottom end of the quilts under control and not falling off sideways.

Yes, this is a bit of a squeeze, but our quilts are wide enough. And yes, we were warm all night. Yes, we could turn over, and did. We did so carefully, and once or twice I reached out to slightly rearrange the quilts, but we slept well.

Cheers

[Derek B.]

Roger, having read some of your articles I'm intrigued about your setup. If you don't mind my asking, what are the dimensions, fill weights, and total weights of the quilts you are talking about here? Sounds like this system works very well for your sleeping style (I seem to recall that you and your wife often sleep spooned together).

I like spooning. My wife and I used to sleep snuggled up a lot (in the early days there were many nights we shared a single bed, quite comfortably). However, in recent years I have found myself dealing with insomnia a lot – at certain times during the night I get very restless and have trouble lying still. This is not every night, but often enough to be an issue when in closed quarters like a tent. It is not such a big deal with the system we currently have – two bags zipped together in summer – since as you say, there is enough slack in the bag on top to keep drafts out, and enough room that I can move around or get up if I need to at night, without yanking the covers away from her. But these bags are way too heavy, hence the desire for an alternative.

Your system of individual quilts seems to address this problem, and I like the option of snuggling up if necessary (or desired). I'm curious about the specs, though, because one of my aims is to have a system I could also take into winter (for occasional solo use) by combining the two bags/quilts one on top of the other. How low could you take the two quilts if it were just you? And what do they weigh? Are they basically the same fill weight, or do you and your wife have different quilts to suit your different warmth preferences?

[sheila o]

My husband and I got 2 MB UL SS #2 that can zip together (L/R) when we want a large quilt. Having 2 bags seams to help with the drafts which occurs with a toss`n`turner. Just in case, I bring my MB down jacket since I'm the cooler one. Save $ when on sale plus an extra 12% if you go through Bing.com first. Ended up 32% off bags and jacket. Cheers.

[Author]

Posts