Topic

3-Season List – Just shy of 17lb base, help!

This topic has 19 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 1 month ago by Tjaard Breeuwer.

Viewing 20 posts - 1 through 20 (of 20 total)

Author

Posts
Sep 6, 2017 at 2:00 pm #3489398

James I
BPL Member

@racerx00

Where did I go wrong?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-IUm9HMK9q-elkttjOIkM45Eevs4MEHQBAzWpjiy6ek/edit#gid=0

Sep 6, 2017 at 2:41 pm #3489410

Ken Thompson
BPL Member

@here
Locale: Right there

Too much clothes. Lots of water containers and cookware. Just a solo list?

Toiletries a bit heavy too.

Sep 6, 2017 at 3:05 pm #3489414

James I
BPL Member

@racerx00

I was thinking about putting a 1.5L Bladder in and just having a Smart Water 1L for extra capacity but that will add weight, not lose it. I don’t like the water bottle access on the HMG.

As for clothes and toiletries, where am I heavy/redundant?

Yes this is a solo list. As for the cookware, I had the pot for water and I was planning on oatmeal in the pot and coffee at the same time. 2 oz. penalty, not worth?

Sep 6, 2017 at 3:47 pm #3489425

Bob Moulder
BPL Member

@bobmny10562
Locale: Westchester County, NY

8 oz fuel for 3 nights is way too much. Even if you boiled a full liter of water for each meal you’d need 10g of fuel per meal, so 60g total. No need to take a 220g canister!

Fuel stand is totally unnecessary.

Wow, that’s one super-heavy pillow.

I did the CL50 a couple of years ago and there is water everywhere. Absolutely no need to carry 2.6 liters of water. What worked for me? ONE 20-oz Gatorade bottle and two 1-liter Platypus soft bottles, and I probably could have gotten by easily with only one of those.

I agree with Ken… too many clothes.

Sep 6, 2017 at 4:32 pm #3489437
Steven Paris
BPL Member

@saparisor
Locale: Pacific Northwest
To start, you might be comparing “apples” to “oranges.” Many/most gear lists don’t include the weight of consumables (fuel, food & water) and often don’t include trekking poles (placing those as “worn” weight rather than something carried in a pack). Subtract those things from your list and it starts to get more in line with other gear lists “base weight.”

That said, there are things you could cut or replace with lighter options:
1. the thermarest pillow is heavy
2. you don’t list what size pot you are carrying; you might be able to go lighter (although 4 + ounces seems about right for a 900mL – 1L pot)
3. leave those heavy camp shoes behind, that’s a pound right there!
4. your shoes are “mid-height” and heavy-ish
5. drop the Purist bottle, ideally drop the CamelBak (tend to be heavy) and go with filter, a 2L bag for dirty water and a 1L Smartwater bottle for clean water. Even though you don’t love the HMG pockets, it’s simpler and lighter.
6. your First aid kit is heavy
7. Clothing isn’t that bad, but read Andrew Skurka’s Core 13 Clothing List on his website; it can help simplify clothing choices. Pay attention to the fact that he doesn’t always take all 13 items on any given trip but picks the items needed for a specific trip based on factors like weather, distance, etc).
Sep 6, 2017 at 5:21 pm #3489449

Roger Caffin
BPL Member

@rcaffin
Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

BPL creeds:
* the single most important bit of gear weighs nothing: a BRAIN.
* Don’t pack your fears. (eg you don’t need 1 L of fuel for a single night.)
* It’s not just what you pack; it is also what you leave behind. (eg you don’t need camp shoes if your light-weight joggers are comfortable.)
* Leave dinosaur gear for the newbs. (eg heavy leather boots.)
* Distinguish between essential gear and fashion accessories. (This one is harder, and requires experience.)

Cheers

Sep 6, 2017 at 5:27 pm #3489454
James I
BPL Member

@racerx00
Have a full 4oz fuel, subbed in. Fuel stand dropped. Need opinions on where I should lose clothing.
1. So the Thermarest pillow is definitely heavy. I take my sleep very seriously and I haven’t found anything else that’s packable with reasonable weight that doesn’t keep me up all night. That’s a luxury item I’m hanging on to and calling it a personal necessity. Something for me to work on in 2018 :D
2. I think it’s 4 cups, definitely 3 in change, you’re in the ballpark. If I wasn’t planning on oatmeal for breakfast I’d have something smaller capacity
3. I know.. I was specifically warned by the leader that there’s crossings and it will be raining while we’re there too. That and I’m taking those heavy mids too for the first time. This is something I usually leave at home but respecting leadership’s opinions and new footwear.
4. Yes. I used to hike in trail runners, did 20 miles on the AT and had ankle issues. Got Moab Ventilators in mids. This could just be a place I need to sacrifice. Training hikes so far have been great in them.
5. Dropped. Taking 1L Smartwater bottle and 16 oz Sawyer Squeeze – water filtration and storage should be significantly smaller now.
6. Lightened- enough?
7. I’d love to hear from people what I should be leaving behind for clothes. Temperatures will range from 25-80F (yay September in the dacks)
Sep 6, 2017 at 5:29 pm #3489456

James I
BPL Member

@racerx00

Roger – this is a 4 day, 3 night trip of a minimum 50 miles with some side hikes- I’m at 4oz of fuel now, and was never at 1L. The shoes aren’t heavy leather, they’re Moab Ventilators in mids, big difference. Please, I’m not offended easily, point out the fashion items.

Sep 6, 2017 at 9:14 pm #3489535

Bob Moulder
BPL Member

@bobmny10562
Locale: Westchester County, NY

I’m doing a somewhat similar trip soon (Grafton Notch Loop, lots more vertical, tho) and here is my tentative list that needs only minor tweaking…. pretty close but there might be a few changes and I need to re-weigh some things (I call them ‘sub-units’ because I think it’s silly to weigh and list individual Advils, lol) that I have pared down during the past year.

My clothing might look a bit light, but I know I’m good down to 32°F no problem and can go somewhat colder than that without suffering a whole lot.

Sep 6, 2017 at 10:13 pm #3489552

Roger Caffin
BPL Member

@rcaffin
Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

Hi James

Generic guidelines, not aimed at you, but intended to provide food for thought.

Cheers

Sep 7, 2017 at 5:38 am #3489594

Bob Moulder
BPL Member

@bobmny10562
Locale: Westchester County, NY

There are different approaches to clothing and your list really is fairly decent. Maybe good to take everything on your list and keep careful notes about what you did and did not need during the trip. For a trip of that length I probably wouldn’t take spare boxers or t-shirt or even socks, but that’s me.

Skurka’s Core 13 will suffice for 99% of what most anybody will need.

Mike Clelland has a video that is more in line with what I am now doing.

However, as with most things, I tweak it even further based upon personal experience, preferences and, for shorter trips, the weather forecast. If the forecast calls for extensive wetness I’ll take an extra LS top and bottom base and extra socks which I will carry in a thin plastic grocery bag; no need for dedicated roll-top dry bag for something like this.

Keep in mind, if you’re cold it’s okay to wear every piece of clothing in your pack for sleeping.

Look for duplication. For example, I see on your list both hiking pants and rain pants. My strategy there is to wear shorts and also carry leg warmers that can be safety-pinned to the shorts, which suffices for me down to about 35°F when moving, and if it gets cold/windy/wet I then put on some Montane Minimus rain pants over this. Total weight: 1.4 lb for bottom, including worn items.

Personally, I would take a beanie (likely) or a buff but not both.

Sep 7, 2017 at 6:07 am #3489597

Bob Moulder
BPL Member

@bobmny10562
Locale: Westchester County, NY

PS —

I think your base is well under 17 lb… that spreadsheet format is a bit jumbled when it comes to separating packed, worn/carried and consumables.

And I would add — given your physique — it pays to have all the lightest stuff possible because base weight as a percentage of body weight is much more significant. Even the pack at 33 oz and the shelter at 30 oz are a bit on the weighty side. By contrast, an Arc Blast (old style, 16.5 oz) and a Solplex (with guylines and stakes, about 18 oz) would lop off close to 2 lbs of base — a considerable amount for anyone but especially someone who weighs 105 lb.

Sep 7, 2017 at 6:31 am #3489602
James I
BPL Member

@racerx00
Bob is so far the winner, not afraid to cut where it hurts :D

As for being well under 17, when I started this it was at 16.99, based on the advice here I have it to where it is now (it’s updating without reflecting what was updated). Sorry for the chaos of the spreadsheet, I had made it for my own reference and chose to share later.

Yes- my weight is a HUGE concern when considering % of weight carried vs. body weight. It doesn’t help that I lose 2 lbs per day no matter how many calories I eat either (you’ll notice calories are a bit short, I’ve stopped carrying them as extra calories do squat for me). No idea how I’m going to tackle winter camping, but one step at a time!

I have a family of 4, including a 2 scouts, I’m still playing Sherpa to them so that’s why I have the SW3400, need to be able to get 30+ lbs on my back and still have it be comfortable. The shelter I split with my wife at times and that was that decision. I’m hoping to tackle these next year with MYOG solutions, potentially pickup an Arc Blast in kid’s size for my son that will adjust for him and use for myself for solo trips. (sometimes it’s an advantage to be 5’4″ 105 lbs). But I did need to hear from others that my core could use some work, I think I thought I had tackled most situations but clearly while I’ve made quality choices for weight/needed performance, it’s all added up to something a bit more grotesque than I anticipated for solo trips.

This year maybe I should just pony up for an inflatable pillow, get lighter camp shoes and come to grips with the fact I’m no longer in the light-trail runner category and clear some of the liquid out of my toiletries. Some of this I guess is a one trip occurrence while I settle in to some of these new gear choices. These include:
1. Buff + Beanie – Included both as this is first chilly weather trip with a quilt. Need to see how it functions with Arc’Teryx Cerium LT hoody. Hoping to drop one of these items but while hiking in cold wind I do like a beanie on the head and a buff around the face. In the future I will leave at home or have it double as a camp towel that I can use for cold in emergencies.
2. Camp shoes – Switched to mids and it’s the first time wearing them and the leader asked for us to bring for crossings. Going to lighten it up for this trip and usually leave at home, if new shoes perform like trail runners, I can hopefully go back to not having to pack.
3. Extra socks/boxers – These are non-negotiable for the first time out with new footwear. Will normally not pack these. Killed the extra boxers. Some of this is when I’m with the fam, the extra few ounces become a lot easier mentally to put on when you’re looking at 31 lbs. packed instead of 22 lbs packed (as counter-intuitive as that sounds). Learning experiences.
This has been great guys, I cut off almost 3lbs base without spending a dime or feeling like I’ve lost any comfort/utility. Doing your research and gaining experience isn’t enough, you really gotta pencil this stuff out. I was making assumptions and carrying more weight than I needed! Keep the advice coming if you have it :)
Sep 7, 2017 at 7:20 am #3489610

Bob Moulder
BPL Member

@bobmny10562
Locale: Westchester County, NY

Doing your research and gaining experience isn’t enough, you really gotta pencil this stuff out.

It’s a mish-mash of all IMO… experience in all sorts of conditions (combination of freezing temps and wet being the most challenging in my experience) and keeping track of what is really needed and what can be left at home. If there’s something in your pack that remains un-used for several trips, it probably isn’t needed.

Real winter, where everything stays nice and frozen and dry, is actually much easier to plan for!

Sep 7, 2017 at 7:44 am #3489612

James I
BPL Member

@racerx00

I’m happy to hear you say that, it’s one of the things I’ve constantly said that I feel like is counter to popular belief, the 4th season is easier than the other 3, it’s just the ice gear that adds the weight. The other thing in case you’re wondering is why the hell do we dehydrate all our food if we’re carrying the water in to re-hydrate them anyways? At least day 1 food can be hydrated. I’ll never understand desert trips where people bring in all their water and dehydrated food. You’re getting the hydration regardless of how it’s ingested!

Sep 7, 2017 at 8:31 am #3489621

Bob Moulder
BPL Member

@bobmny10562
Locale: Westchester County, NY

Depends entirely on availability of water.

If I’m carrying only 20 oz water and able to refill as needed at natural water sources (which is quite often here in the NE) then I collect water right before camping for dinner and breakfast — no need to carry it all day!

Much different for the desert, and there might be a narrow set of circumstances where carrying hydrated food would make sense.

And that’s the bottom line for a lot of things: does it make sense logistically?

I’ve read about people carrying 3 liters of water all day while walking along a river or on a trail with frequent stream crossings… an example of something that doesn’t make sense.

BTW, my water treatment system weighs 0.92 oz. Aquamira repackaged into two 10ml dropper bottles, need about 3ml per day for treatment using pre-mix method. This is enough for about a week on the trail.

Sep 7, 2017 at 9:04 am #3489632

James I
BPL Member

@racerx00

Oh totally, but it helps me justify a prosciutto w/ fresh mozzarella and red peppers and olive oil on a hero for a meal on day 1, meal 1 and actually makes sense for more than probably 3/4 of the trips… so, math that I can get behind!

Sep 7, 2017 at 9:22 am #3489636

Link .
BPL Member

@annapurna

James HERE is a list of helpful videos and articles for newbies that I have put together a number of them are on doing it cheap, but here is another that is not on that list Cheap Lightweight Backpacking Gear For some reason in my newbie help link the Oregon Field Guide Ultralight Hiking video link is down so if you want to watch it(it is worth watching) HERE is another link for you so you can( it starts 8 min 30 sec. into the episode)

Sep 12, 2017 at 5:58 am #3490514

James I
BPL Member

@racerx00

Some good advice here but also glad I took the extra items. Perfect night time temp of 34, not to low but low enough to understand how the quilt system is functioning.. I definitely tried every layer at least once. Learned a lot of good things out there, will be able to go back and adjust now and make lighter :D

> 10 lbs. by march is my goal!

Sep 26, 2017 at 10:35 am #3493294

Tjaard Breeuwer
BPL Member

@tjaard
Locale: Minnesota, USA

I would suggest the biggest issue is simply a lack of (visible/recorded) process.

Before you get to a ‘product’ (ie gear list), you need a proper process.

You have not defined the problem, so how can you expect to engineer a good solution? In my opinion, this is the most valuable part of Andrew Skurka’s book, that he focuses on defining the requirements for gear.

So ask and answer questions like these:

What is the goal of the trip? Who is going? What is the location? What are the environmental conditions? What regulations are in place? What are the campsites like? What are emergency scenarios?

The answers to these questions are (part of) defining the problem. Then you work on from there.

The other comment I’d have is that you are using 1/100th of a gram and ounce in your spreadsheet. You can not measure that precisely, so these numbers are simply junk. If you are trying to compare different weights, you need to able to easily, at a glance, compare them, so removing insignificant decimals will help.

Finally the ‘base weight’ number is often used, as it lets you compare weights without concern for trip length or changes during a trip. So, you might want to separate out consumables from the overview list.

Hope this helps.
Author

Posts