3-season layering system from scratch (Nunatuk, Melanzana options; others?)

The Nano Air Light hoody seems like it could suit you well as a mid layer.  Blocks some wind, about as warm as an R1, but lighter and dries faster.

Then you just need enough puffy for stops and making camp, and then rely on your sleep system for warmth.

Interesting. I did consider one of the super light puffy options that are intended as active layers (nunatuk’s JMT or EE’s new apex jacket). I haven’t read much about them but kind of thought they might be more suited as either active layers in winter or minimalist insulation layers for summer FKT type hikers..

re: Melanzana fleece. I love the hood but I find the fleece to be sognificantly less warm than a TNF TKA or Arcteryx Fortrez. The TKA keeps me so dang warm and it’s only $50. It’s a winner… I wish they made it with a hood.

I love hoods. I have them on my puffy, my rain jacket, my windshirt and main hiking shirt. I like them on everything. I frequently misplace hats. Also hoods seem to trap more heat in by sealing around my neck.

I’m drifting/rambling here but I’m intrigued by the idea of an elephant foot bag. Bringing a heavier puffy keeps you warm around camp and then you just wear that to bed with the elephant foot pulled up to your torso. Nunatek has some interesting systems based around this concept.

Thanks for the reference Matthew, I’m wondering if it’ll be too heavy and warm.. I need to get to a brick and mortar store to get a proper hands on, it’s really an issue of finding the right balance of warm-but-not-too-warm. Problem is we don’t stock much if this stuff in New Zealand:(

I guess I’m really trying to find a mid layer that breathes really well but with enough insulation that when a hard shell is added it contributes significant warmth.

And I agree on the elephant foot idea. To me it makes more sense than the folks who skip puffys and wrap their quilts around them.

Have you thought about a half shelled ThermalPro?

That is a layer with ThermalPro piles but a windshell on the outer side

This is what I am thinking about as one of my next DIY projects. I am just having trouble at the moment making up my mind on how breathable/windproof I want that outer shell layer.

If you get a Skaha pullover you can select the shell fabric to give the performance you need. Jan there is helping me with a custom Skaha down and a lot of emails have been exchanged and I don’t think you could go wrong with 100GSM in Apex

I have, but my impression was that they are just too warm for hiking unless it’s very cold

“I guess I’m really trying to find a mid layer that breathes really well but with enough insulation that when a hard shell is added it contributes significant warmth.”

TNF TKA breathes well enough to hike in first thing in the morning and is definitely warm when I throw a windshirt or rainshell over it.

“Problem is we don’t stock much if this stuff in New Zealand”

Same problem in Arizona. If it’s not at REI then you have to mail order it. Granted shipping and returns are easier for me here.

Any generic micro fleece will do. REI, TNF, thrift store should be about the same.  They don’t breathe as well as a grid but are much more water resistant than grid styles (spandex in grid fleeces absorbs water).

Dave C wrote a compelling review of the Nano Air Light as being even better with moisture than a classic fleece which is very surprising to me. Whether it’s worth the high price is another story. I suspect most will be better served with the flexibility of a micro fleece and wind shirt vs the peak performance of the Nano.  Some hikes I take just a fleece or just a wind shirt, or both.

Nunatuk reckons the 3.6oz fill will be as warm, if not warmer than my Rab Nimbus for less weight (about 4oz less). A 5.0oz fill on the body and 2.5oz on the sleeves would be slightly heavier (about 3oz less than the Nimbus). An inexact science, so can’t really say if this would be more effective… so if anyone has done something like this with a jacket, is there any guidance on which way to go?

I was thinking of going no hood, as an apex balaclava is more versatile and more effective for effectively less weight (as I can leave behind my beanie).

If New Zealand mountain weather is as bad or worse than the Bogong High Plains or the Kosi main Range[ and I know it is] then I’d go with 5oz APEX fill on the torso and 3.6 in the sleeves and I would definitely get the hooded version and wear all layers if I had to

Go baselayer-microfleece-shell-big puffy.  The puffy you have is really not that puffy, you need something that really has some loft to it.  For a micro fleece go with something like a Mountain Hardwear Microchill Lite quarter zip.

Hi Jonathan,

I have 2 tnf tka.  One is medium and the other one is large. They are in new condition. I can give you one free if you are willing to pay shipping to your place.  I have no clue how much it will cost.

So a light fleece layer is the common addition/alternative. Probably grid. Melanzana seems the common go to, but there’s also the patagonia R1 that’s commonly mentioned as well. In this category they seem more or less equal quality.

Fleece is underrated, IMO. I prefer “regular” fleece, more warmth, lighter and nicer to the touch than the “silly” fleeces.

MH Microchill pullovers is what I have been using (2 models, lighter and warmer).

Also Patagonia Synchilla, heavy though but so amazingly functional!

Also, women’s fleece leggings at Walmart, great as base layer bottoms, much warmer and more comfortable than merino (https://www.walmart.com/ip/ClimateRight-by-Cuddl-Duds-Women-s-Stretch-Fleece-Warm-Underwear-Leggings-Sizes-S-3X/46040276 — love these!)

TNF TKA fleece I had bad experiences with, the color would leach, the fleece would pill extensively. Too bad, there’s not really a way to tell the fleece quality upfront and, in their race to the bottom, the outdoor companies will often pick up the cheapest junk available…

Another item for really cold temps is a fleece neck gaitor from Turtle fur or some such. Amazing how much it helps.

For the head gear, a thin fleece beanie from Mammut.

What are your hiking t-shirts made of? Are you, perhaps, getting chilled at rest because the t-shirt has held onto a bunch of moisture that evaporates at rest, cooling you?

Looking at your current assets, I would think you’d be fine down to freezing with the addition of a wicking polyester or merino baselayer and a windshirt. The windshirt will not only protect from wind while moving but will allow perspiration generated while on the move to pass through (due to its much higher air permeability than your waterproof layer). The windshirt also provides warmth roughly equivalent to a 100 weight fleece because it protects a boundary layer of air between your baselayer and it. I think it’s pretty common for those that use an air-permeable windshirt to be comfortable in only baselayer+windshirt while active down to 4C or so. I only use a midlayer, when hiking, when temps drop to freezing or below.

The shelled midlayers (Patagonia Nano, et al.) have become really popular recently, but know that they are roughly equivalent to a 100-200 weight fleece with highly permeable windshirt on top. My guess is that most BPLers persist with the latter combo due to the flexibility it offers.

Highly permeable winshirts include Black Diamond Alpine Start, Luke’s Ultralight Windshirt & Arcteryx Squamish. These all have hoods and sleeves that can be pulled to the elbows, increasing the temp ranges they are useful for.

These two posts by Richard Nisley were very helpful for me in approaching clothing and layering in a systematic way:

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/9378/

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/18950/

Go baselayer-microfleece-shell-big puffy. The puffy you have is really not that puffy, you need something that really has some loft to it. For a micro fleece go with something like a Mountain Hardwear Microchill Lite quarter zip.

Plus one. I use the same system. Same on Mountain Hardwear: seems like the fabric is still good quality, unlike some others like The North Face.

I concur on sometimes wearing shell _under_ the puffy. In the real cold of Yellowstone in winter, I found that a Paclite Gore-tex shell worked better under the heavy duty down jacket from Montbell…

Here’s what my gear looks like on winter ski trips (worked well till quite a bit below zero — correction: 0F, AKA -18C):

1. Merino base layer, t-shirt, long bottoms; all by Icebreaker (planning to replace the bottoms with stretch fleece).
2. Marmot precip full zip pants (ventilation, on and off for heavy activity). Cheap and work as well as anything else. Full zips are the most critical feature.
3. MH Microchill Zip-T lite. For colder substitute for the same w/o the “lite”.
4. Paclite Arcteryx Beta SL. Got a new Alpha FL, we’ll see.
5. Heavy duty down jacket in the pack for emergencies.
6. Mammut fleece beanie, gloves, etc.

The thing about backcountry skiing is that it requires probably the maximum possible range of layering flexibility, since you go from very heavy activity (skinning up) to possible full stops when transitioning or on a break.

I’ve got a whole pile of Patagonia Nanopuff and similar stuff, after using them for a while I find they get used around town more than in the hills and even in summer my Go-To puffy is the DAS, in winter I may use one or two other internal layers naturally but the UL stuff simply isn’t warm enough for Australias cool & damp conditions and NZ is colder and wetter

Johnathan,

A new Rab Nimbus should theorectically keep the average person, doing camp chores, thermo-neutral to a low of ~56F / 13.3C. Synthetic insulation degrades rapidly from compression to a plateau, after a few weeks useage, to approximately 30-40% less than new.

You said, “So my problem is that even in summer conditions, where I live (New Zealand) is prone to cold snaps and nasty wind, and nearly every trip I’ve been on I’ve unexpectedly used my puffy on at least a couple of nights.”

What is the minimum wind chill temp you want your puffy to keep you comfortable doing camp chores after being stuffed during the day?

Honestly I have to say that if you have the gear in your pack the temperatures were not unexpected.

I expect that even in the middle of summer I may get snow in the hills and pack appropriately so a Thermo-neutral of 0C is what I consider reasonable for summer in Oz, for New Zealand I’d add 10 degrees to that

Hard to beat the base, fleece, shell, puffy formula.

With various tweaks it has worked well for me down to -33°F… just mo’ fleecy and mo’ puffy.    :^)

I am a huge fan of pit zips on the shell.

Hard to beat the base, fleece, shell, puffy formula.

Agreed, I use the Patagonia Thermal Weight hoodie (previously Capilene 4) and it is wonderful. If it’s cool and not too windy, I just wear that over my merino t-shirt. If it’s cool and windy, I’ll wear my Houdini over my t-shirt. If I’m still feeling chilled, I’ll wear my t-shirt, Pat. fleece, and Houdini. This system is strictly for hiking. I find that if I’m comfortable hiking in just the t-shirt and fleece, throwing on the Houdini for quick breaks is often enough to prevent me from getting too cold. I generally save my puffy for camp for when I change into clean/dry clothes. This system is good for me to just below freezing but I do change which puffy I bring depending on the temps.

Nunatuk reckons the 3.6oz fill will be as warm, if not warmer than my Rab Nimbus for less weight (about 4oz less). A 5.0oz fill on the body and 2.5oz on the sleeves would be slightly heavier (about 3oz less than the Nimbus). An inexact science, so can’t really say if this would be more effective… so if anyone has done something like this with a jacket, is there any guidance on which way to go?

I was thinking of going no hood, as an apex balaclava is more versatile and more effective for effectively less weight (as I can leave behind my beanie).

I have an Apex Skaha on order from Nunatak with 5oz body and 2.5oz arms and no hood.  Its for use in SoCal, South Sierra winter (20F is about as adventurous as I get with current gear) conditions.  I opted out of getting the hood since I have an Enlightened Equipment Hoodlum with 4oz of Apex and I like the modularity of using the hood for sleeping without having to always wear the jacket.  For real cold I would add a rain shell over everything.

I should have the jacket in 2-3 weeks and can give you an idea after that as night time temps will soon be hitting close to freezing in the San Gorgonio mtns where I’ll be making some trips in November. My typical hiking layers in 40-50 degree daytime temps are a thrift store Nike Dri Fit thermal weight top and windshirt as needed with shorts.  Between 30-40 without deep snow I’ll switch to Arcteryx Rampart pants (nylon) and possibly add a Ragged Mountain Powerstretch top if I’m in the shade.  The Skaha would be for breaks/night time only as I stay very warm while moving but cool off and sleep cold.

posting a mini update on the Skaha since I have received direct messages inquiring about its performance.
I haven’t had a chance to do a trip with it yet due to work obligations. This will in fact make the “test” more important as lows should be around 20 degrees weekend after next when I should be out.  I have worn the jacket inside and its too warm to keep on for long, outside at night its only been in the 50s and I’m sure I could sleep in it without any quilt. Construction is first rate, all the seams are perfectly finished and it comes in at 10oz. I am very happy with it though it is almost featureless except for its exceptional warmth which is all I was looking for.

The 5oz Apex “core” is quite bulky and will make you look like a nylon blob but its a layer for inactive insulation so this is fine.  The fit is perfect, I am 6’1″ and 170lbs and I got a MD/LG with 2″ added to the back hem.  The outer fabric is 7d Robic and the inner is .66 Membrane taffeta.

Another option I was considering was the jacket in 3.6 Apex and a vest in 5oz for more flexibility in above freezing temps.  This was too costly however.

side observation about your sleeping gear…

” I find my Klymit insulated pad and 20 degree EE quilt chilly at times, even when wearing all my layers. It’s not *that* cold at night, so I can only assume this is down to my body.”

My experience with the Klymit Insulated Static V Light in combination w/an EE 20 quilt was cold. And that cold was coming up from underneath. Luckily my trial night was early spring car camping, so I slipped a spare Ridge Rest under the pad, and was immediately better. Notice those wide welded parts? Klymt’s sales copy touts them as giving your bag more room to loft. Seems like that’s more of a requirement than a bonus. (for the record, they were super nice about letting me send it back.)

Now, I’ve encountered others online who say they’re fine with this combo. Maybe they sleep warmer than I do? As someone who gets cold easily I’d suggest you swap in a NeoAir and see if that makes a difference.

re: Melanzana — I have a dress from them. While I adore it for everyday, can’t decide if I’d want a similarly styled hoodie for backpacking. The hood is amazing, but not being able to vent might be a deal breaker. Which is all moot unless you can get to the Leadville store or wait till they restart stocking online in spring.

Thanks for the help guys. I found a cheap wind shirt to test out the concept, and will try a light, and test out various combos. Some really good info here that helped guide me.

I missed Richard’s comment before.

You said, “So my problem is that even in summer conditions, where I live (New Zealand) is prone to cold snaps and nasty wind, and nearly every trip I’ve been on I’ve unexpectedly used my puffy on at least a couple of nights.”

What is the minimum wind chill temp you want your puffy to keep you comfortable doing camp chores after being stuffed during the day?

I probably don’t know enough about wind chill temps to give a proper answer here. I suspect around 2-3c (I’m not too sure how “camp chores” comfort level correlates to full resting?). Most of the time it’s not going to be much below 10c, but we do sometimes get some really chilly nights especially down the valleys etc.

Johnathan,

2C = 35.6F; the 800 fill down needed for thermo-neutral (TN) camp chores over 1 clo base is ~3.5 oz of 800 fill or ~2.4 Iclo.

Camp chores have an average MET of 1.75; resting aka BMR has an average MET of 1; and sleeping has an average MET of .8.  The MET rate is inversely proportional to the Iclo needed to be TN.

The 3.6 oz/yd2 Shaka Apex is a 2.35 Iclo (2.95 clo) garment and should be adequate for your specified objectives.

My Prior Shaka Apex Analysis