Cocoon Pro 60 Parka vs. Patagonia Nano Puff Pullover vs. anything else?

Are you set on synthetic? Down clothing is lighter, warmer, more durable. And the benefits of synthetic fill over down in the wet are overstated, in my opinion – *both* are useless when wet. Plus clothes don't suffer from condensation like a sleeping bag does.

They are really quite different beasts.

The Cocoon Pro is pretty lofty and has a hood and a shell with greater water resistance so is much more a 'proper' belay jacket – i.e. designed to go over everything else for belays, rest stops etc.

The nano puff is lighter, doesn't have a hood, has less insulation and less waterproof shell. (I hear a hooded version is 'in the making')It could still be used as a belay jacket in milder conditions but will be less warm, less rain resistant and of course the current version doesn't have a hood.

The nano puff possibly has a bit more flexibility for use as a mid layer if required in cold conditions.

They're both great, useful, lightweight garments and which one to take would depend very much on your hiking style and the type of conditions you anticipate or want to make a contingency for.

I agree though that for warmth to weight and durability down is king. Just depends on the conditions you expect, the use you want to put it to as well as to personal preference.

On paper the Nano is probably the warmest synthetic insulating garment in its category. As said above though, the Pro 60 is more of a belay parka where the Nano is more just an insulating garment.

Thanks, guys. How do I square the comment above ("the Nano is probably the warmest synthetic insulating garment in its category") with Jim's comment that the nano has less insulation and will be less warm. Thanks, and best, Aaron

The Cocoon has 68 g/sq m (2 oz/sq yd) Polarguard Delta where the Nano has 60 g/sq m (1.77 oz/sq yd) Primaloft One. Polarguard Delta has a CLO of .68 where Primaloft One has a CLO of .84.

Cocoon CLO = 2 * .68 = 1.36
Nano CLO = 1.77 * .84 = 1.49

The higher the garment CLO the warmer it will likely be. Loft doesn't mean much in regards to synthetic insulation. Note that this doesn't account for the liner/shell materials which will also contribute some warmth.

For comparing the Cocoon with hood vs the Nano without:

Cocoon total CLO = 1.36 * .545 = .74
Nano total CLO = 1.49 * .48 = .72

Based on those numbers, if you wear the Nano without a hood vs wearing the Cocoon and using the hood, the Cocoon is slightly warmer although I doubt you'd notice the difference. The Nano with comparable head insulation would still be warmer, but you must have the head insulation.

Do you already own something and are looking to see if there's a warmer upgrade? Or are you looking for an insulating garment because you don't have one?

The Cocoon Pro 60 Parka would have to be found on the gear swap since it's no longer being made. The new Cocoon gear should be here in June but there won't be a Pro Parka. However, I do believe the new insulation will make it warmer (on paper) than the Pro 60 or Nano.

Thanks, guys. With regards to down, I'm usually all for it. But I'd like to be able to use this particular piece for things like sailing, sea kayaking, etc., in addition to everything else – which is why I was thinking synthetic.

I do have the Cocoon Pro 60 Parka and was wondering if there's anything better.

(FYI, an aside for those developing the new Cocoon gear: my Pro 60 holds a stench like none other. I'm a "functional" kind of guy who sees smell as mostly irrelevant. But, wow.)

The Montbell Thermawrap jacket or parka are excellent lightweight synthetic jackets. I have the hoodless jacket and I love it. Superlight and warm.

So maybe you guys can shed some insight on warmth… How can I figure out how warm something like Marmot's W Venus jacket or the Patagonia W Down sweater is? Both are 800 fill, and the jackets each weigh in the 11-12 ounce range. Seems like synthetics pitted against each other is a relatively easy comparison. Specifically, I have been tossing around the idea of using the Nano Puff in lieu of a down jacket such as the two above, but seriously wonder to what temperature I'd be comfortable in each (obviously, that's a pretty subjective thing, but for the case of this, presume every other variable constant). Is there a way to quantify insulation as far as down vs. synthetic?

Elisabeth,

The women’s jackets you are considering compare as follows:

Patagonia Down Sweater = Iclo 2.14 – 44F
Marmot Venus Jacket = Iclo 1.98 – 45F
Patagonia Nano Puff = Iclo 1.51 – 49F

All temp ratings are for doing camp chores (1.5 MET) with 1 clo of base layers and sheltered from the wind

You have to measure the clo of the down jackets with calibrated instrumentation in order to accurately compare them with the more standardized synthetic insulations.

That is exactly what I was looking for! Glad I asked, thank you thank you.

Is there a resource to find the CLO values of different pieces of gear?

Check out the MEC Northern Light at mec.ca

Elisabeth,

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=18950 lists the lab measured Iclo values for the garments commonly used by UL backpackers. I have tested many jackets much warmer than what I listed in the table but, they are typically heavier than an UL backpacker will commonly carry.

The current Patagonia Women's Sweater has a slightly different Iclo value than the older Patagonia Men's PO listed in the chart. The temperature ratings of the two versions both have thermo-neutral temps within 1F.

One caution to keep in mind is that the Iclo measurement for the Nano Puff is the best case value. Its Iclo value will degrade from compression / decompression cycles (as will all synthetics) whereas the down garments values will test approximately the same for the life of the products.

Will’s BPL reviews have recently compared both the men’s and the women’s version of UL jackets. His current review on the Women’s EB800 provides a 40F rating (using the environmental and metabolic non-variables I specified) which makes it warmer than any of the jackets that you are currently considering.

Hi Richard.

I'd be interested to know where you think the Western Mountaineering Flash Hood would sit in your chart? I'm thinking of getting one as I think I would prefer it and it would be a little warmer than the Montbell Inner Parka with very little weight penalty. (Elisabeth – there's a women's version too)

Also if Will has any plans to review?

I prefer insulation items with hoods. For me they out-perform a jacket and hat combo, especially for sleeping and if really cold I would combine with a silk balaclava or possum down hat as well!

http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=products&page=Down%20Garments&cat=Jackets%20and%20Vests&ContentId=76

Where are Will's reviews?

Jim,

My tests gave the WM Hooded Flash an Iclo value of 2.28. It was reviewed by BPL at
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/wm_hooded_flash_jacket.html

Oops, I'd missed that.

Fabulous… thanks Richard!

Regardless of all the clo factors, I chose the Nano b/c it is a jacket I could wear year round. I wear it as my 3 season insulation when backpacking, under my hardshell when skiing or shoveling snow and as is to work every day this winter. It also does not hurt that I receive compliments about it on a regular basis when out and about. Pretty awesome to have something so functional that receives daily use.

The word on overall functionality from the man himself.