Kids Bag

I've made several high quality children's down sleeping bags and am seriously considering producing them on a small scale. I would be curious what type of children's bag BPL members would be interested in and how many people think they would actually buy one.

It seems like the best children's sleeping bag still weights much more than an adult version rated to the same temperature. I've seen other backpacking parents make the same observation and resort to several creative measures to avoid the heavy children's sleeping bags. I know of some who use an adult bag and cinch closed the excess length of the bag with some cord. Others have used adult-sized down jackets for very small children. When my daughter was very little I could put her in the same bag as me, but it certainly had it's drawbacks. Eventually, I decided to make a bag for her. I've been doing some field testing with my 2-year-old daughter this winter. I've made several improved models since then, and now have a pattern that I am very happy with.

The market is also lacking younger age sleeping bags. Most of them are made to fit a 5 foot child, which really is not much smaller than many of the short adult sleeping bags. In my opinion, if your child is close to 5 foot you might as well get a 5.5 foot short adult sleeping bag.

I would consider making different sized bags if there is a demand for it, but my current bag will fit comfortably up to 4 feet tall. It has a full hood, baffled zipper, draw cord and baffle around the face opening, and draw cord baffled collar. The shell is made of momentum fabric and filled with 800+ down. 7 inches of loft and a weight of 15 oz. I know that 7 inches of loft may seem excessive, but at only 15 oz. I figure it makes more sense to have only one bag for the children and then just unzip it in warm weather. From what materials have cost thus far it looks like I would sell this bag for around $250.00

Let me know if you are interested and what type of features you would be looking for. Hope I'm not stealing the thread. I was planning on posting some pictures of a prototype on BPL soon, and your topic got my attention. I have never been able to find a children's bag I was happy with, if someone knows of one similar to what I have made I would like to know about it before investing in this.

Brett Rasmussen, Nimbus Bags

At 7 your child can use a woman's short (petite) bag (one sized to 5'5" or 5'6" and then fold the end under). Only use down if your child doesn't EVER wet the bed. If so, get synthetic. This is so you can wash it. Frankly I didn't do down for Ford due to how dirty kids get – I washed his bags every season.

The main difference outside of height (length) is that kid's bags do NOT have cords for tightening in most cases to avoid choking issues. They instead have a fitted hood with elastic and Velcro. The zipper is also often bigger to make it easier for little hands.

You have to look around to find good kids bags. They are out there. A North Face Tigger may seem heavy at 2.1 but is also a bombproof bag – trust me on this your kid would have to be extremely abusive to destroy it, where as with an adult bag they will have to be more careful. It is also pretty accurate on the temp rating.

Kids can be very hard on gear so keep that in mind.

I just bought two tiggers after pretty extensive review of options for our five and nine year olds and similar reasons as the previous post. They pack down small enouph that I can get them in the kids daypacks and still have room for their clothes. My five year old made me glad we dis not go he down route by peeing in her bag the first night she tried it out…

Very wide variability in price on Tiggers, search the web and you can find good deals with no tax and no shipping.

my son is 5 and sleeps in the red bag on the left
its a north face blue ridge 20 deg synthetic bag and i must say sarah makes a good point on the durability and temp rating of these bags my sons bag has been stepped on
dropped dragged thru the campsite and left in the back yard with the sprinklers on (long story) after all that it
still looks new and my son has spent several nights in the sierras in it and to this day has never complained about being cold even on chilly nights in the high 20s his bag is toasty warm on the inside yes they are a little heavy for the size but they do pack down fairly small soits not really bulky in your pack i will probably get him a down bag when he gets taller but for now his tnf is bombproof for a kid his age and the torture he inflicts on it
good luck in your search
kevin

http://www.sunnysports.com/Prod/CategoryID_2165/Context_2144/Sort_Stock/DescSort_0/Filter_5%3d2710/NFCBBR.html?Hit=1

here is a link to the 09 version of my sons bag if you want to check them out

@Brett – You've got a great idea there, but it might be a little hardcore. I'm pretty into my backpacking and it's my primary obsession, but I'd hesitate to spend that much on a bag that will only be used for a couple years. They just grow so fast. A Momentum bag with 800+ down is something I'd get for myself, but I'd expect a good decade out of it. I think that's why we don't see a lot of ultralight material kids stuff. I imagine with cheaper nylon and 650 down you could cut the price in half and only add a few ounces since it's small. Then I'd be all over it. My 2 cents, at least.

@Sarah – Good advice! Solid point about the pee. Especially after being exhausted after hiking all day, that's something to consider. I also like the idea of not worrying about spills and abuse on a down bag so much. My guess is that if those bags have worked for you, they'll work for me (also in the Cascades). Thanks!

@Kevin @John – Thanks for the link and info. Pretty much got it down to the Blue Ridge or Tigger. Time to just find a decent deal. I can live with a hair over 2 lbs.

Much appreciated!

I think also that spending $75 to 110 isn't so painful as say $250 to 300 when the kid grows in a couple years.

I know Ford loved his kid sized gear when little, the colors he loved especially. Then around 11 or so he wanted "grown up colors" and due to his growth spurt I bought him adult gear in adult colors. Worked out well and I wasn't broke in the end.

I just watched his pack weight in other ways – such as when really little I carried most of his food and water to balance out everything.

Funny is…he still has a synthetic bag even though at home he has a down blanket. The kid sweats soooo bad now that he is entering teen years. I knew I needed a bag for him I could wash more often. Sigh! I tell him he'd have down like me if he wanted to pay the dry cleaners ;-)

Thanks for the feedback. Obviously, a high quality down sleeping bag is not a mainstream item. If there was already a good source for purchasing one I would not be considering this venture. However, I don’t know of one children’s sleeping bag on the market that I could not make half the weight not to mention compactness, and water repellence. I am hesitant to use anything but the best materials. If I reduce quality in order to lower prices that would be a move in the direction of children’s bags that are already available. I agree that $250.00 is too much for mass produced mainstream bag. A $150.00 30oz sleeping bag would sell better than a $250.00 15 oz bag. I’m not sure how much I could lower the price below $250.00, I’m still sourcing materials, but I am confident it would not be more than $250.00. If I were looking to turn this into a main source of income, I would have to widen my market. I’m more interested in producing a unique product I would be proud of sharing.
Curt, I can see how this bag might not be ideal for your 7 year old. He or she may be tall enough to be better off with a short adult bag. Although most kids outgrow those as well. It can be tempting to just get the regular adult size, which is usually only 6 inches longer so that they don’t out grow it. I do think that there are many cases where a 4-foot bag would get many years of use. My daughter graduated from sleeping in a bag with me (not sure that I would recommend this due to possible smothering hazard of sleeping with infants) to her own bag when she was 1 year old. I think she will continue to fit that bag until about age 8. My wife and I plan to have more children and expect to hand it down. When all of our kids have outgrown it, I would pass it on to someone else with children. I think we’ll easily get well over 10 years use out of it before passing it on, which I think is reasonable.
I agree that kids can be hard on gear. To them it is not “gear,” it’s just another toy for them to try to brake. If your kid is fond of knives, scissors, or fire than I would recommend investing in a first aid kit rather than a sleeping bag or maybe a sleeping bag that you can lock closed Otherwise, I would not underestimate the durability of momentum fabric. All of my experience with it as well as what I have read and seen my daughter do to it leads me to believe that it is surprisingly abrasion resistant and much stronger than what a child could pull or kick apart. I would consider the bag durable, not “bombproof.”
I think any sleeping bag, down or synthetic, that has been peed in should be washed once the trip is over. This bag is machine washable. I have not been able to distinguish a difference in the DWR treatment of the momentum fabric after repeated washings. I would recommend that the dryer be set on low heat. I often run my sleeping bags through the dryer (a larger one at the laundry mat is ideal for adult bags) to get them back to their maximum loft. If a child is likely to pee in a sleeping bag, I think protection (diaper, plastic underwear, etc) is a good idea regardless of the bag. If they do pee in it obviously it should affect their comfort level, but I think the bottom (compressed/non-insulating) portion of the bag will be most affected. I have considered making a bag with an inner made of seam sealed silnylon for those who are extremely concerned about accidents.
I think that there are many backpacking parents looking for the right bag for their kids. I hope this thread stays alive and more people will comment on what bags have worked well for their kids and let me know if you think there is a market for the type bag I am considering selling to the BPL community.
Brett Rasmussen Nimbus Bags

Do a search and find a previous thread from this fall. I had Tim Marshall make me a synthetic quilt/bag for my son. You won't be disappointed.

Matti

I had Tiggers for my twins when they were little. They were about as small and light as I could find for a kids bag and they worked quite well.

They are 10 now and last Christmas I gave them new “adult” bags. A couple years ago I had received a nice Christmas bonus and used some of it to buy two Sierra Designs Sun Ribbon bags as they were being discontinued and I got a great deal. I got a women’s reg for my daughter and the women’s long for my son. They are down-filled and have waterproof breathable shells to help for any spills in the tent. (Plus we can get some killer condensation in Minnesota.) The best thing is while they weigh more than their Tiggers they pack smaller. Plus I picked up $500.00 worth of bags for $170.00.

Search around, keep an eye on SAC. There are bargains to be had.

Brett, that sounds like a good idea/goal. I would have been very interested in a lighter weight (while still warm) kid’s bag for them when they were younger.

I am pretty much converted to quilts and my daughter just had to sleep with the first two I got (in the front room). I asked both of my kids if they would like a quilt and both said they want a zipper for camping. Maybe a security thing.

Ray,

Ford has said the same thing over the years about quilts. He is a roller though (often ending up draped over me in the tent….sigh). He often goes off his pad as well.

So the bag keeps him warmer.

With any kid bag though – if anyone is thinking of producing them – use NO cords. It is a major safety issue and could leave the company open to being sued :-(

Ray, I think I found a good link discussing the custom children's bags made by Tim Marshall:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=23286&disable_pagination=1
Looks like some good bags. Certainly a better light weight option than what can be found at REI and such. It would be nice to see
http://enlightenedequipment.webs.com/
offer some of these as standard products on their website.

With all respect for the bags made by Tim Marshall, I'm going for a different type of children's bag. More loft (7 inches) and with all the features expected in a high quality adult down bag (hood, draft tube, etc.) Although from what I have read I would certainly recommend sleeping bags made by Tim Marshall.

The cinching foot box seems very popular. I have been considering making a model with 4 draw cords that start at the base of the foot box and pull upward kind of like the way a compression sack works, but not the whole length of the bag and with lighter materials. Essentially shortening the bag while maintaining the foot box space and with less compression of the insulation.

Cords that can wrap around a child's neck and hang from or become cough on something are unquestionably dangerous for children. Those used to open and close curtains and blinds are notorious for this. I'm having a hard time understanding how something similar could happen with a draw cord inside a sleeping bag that is fully enclosed inside the fabric of the sleeping bag. The cord locks don't take much pressure for them to loosen the cord. The draw cords I have been making do not even have an exposed loop, just one straight cord used to cinch the bag. So even if a child were somehow running around in a sleeping bag he or she could not just snag it on something.

On a different note for those worried about claustrophobic children I made one bag with a zipper that slides open simply by pushing on the bag. The top is secured with just enough Velcro to prevent the zipper from opening with normal tossing and turning, but as soon as the child wants to get out all they have to do is push and the bag opens right up.

Another feature I have considered is to add small loops for securing the bag to the pad so they cannot role off the pad.

Has anyone mentioned the kids bags at MEC.

Down filled. 5"+ loft (13.5cm) Rated to 0C (32F)

Small is 3'10", 745g (26oz) $86
Large is 4'9", 860g (30)oz $94

I know it seems dumb, but that is why the major companies don't use them anymore in sleeping bags, jackets or hoodies.

I would be a lot of it is their insurance companies won't cover them if they do but also in recent years the US Gov't has gotten very strict with kids toys, apparel and gear. I would study up on the rules – there may be ones that affect even small cottage gear companies. This past year a whole bunch of tight laws went into effect.

Mostly though the real issue is kids will play with anything on hand – and cord locks are the perfect size for getting off, in mouth and choking when younger. Yes it is dumbing down for the masses….but it is worth it.

Rod, the bag at MEC really looks good for the price.

http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442624488&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302735357&bmUID=1267037167213

I'm sure it would serve many well. Still it is only 575 down. It looks to be just about twice the weight to loft ratio of the bags I'm making. But definitely a good option. I think I would go for it before TNF Tiggers.

Sarah, Thank you for your advice. The cord locks are permanently attached to the bag with grosgrain ribbon, (available from Thru-Hiker) but I was not aware that there was a movement to remove draw cords from all children's products.

I was pretty sold on the Tigger (thanks for the recommendations!) and just looking for a decent deal when I ran into this one:

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/319,2013R_Lafuma-35-F-Warm-N%E2%80%99-Light-Sleeping-Bag-Mummy-650-plus–Fill-Power-Down-For-Youth.html

With a coupon and free shipping the grand total was something like $49. Hard to beat! Right size, very light (1.5lbs). Only questionable piece is the down, but I have a large capacity front loader and am pretty confident in being able to keep it clean. I'll post a note when it arrives on how it works out, but hard to beat weight/cost on this one!

Could you post the loft measurement when you get it?

The bag came in on spec. 1.5 lbs exactly, so about as light as there seems to be out there without going custom. Loft is optimistic, but this seems to be common in Lafuma bags. I measure it around 3". Should be fine for summer when we'll be using it. Well made – fit is great. Not bad for $49 including shipping!

Thanks for all the info.

REI Outlet commonly has kids bags on sale. FWIW

Here is another way of looking at it:
If you have a synthetic bag that is twice the weight of a down bag, you could potentially carry a spare down bag, without a weight penalty.

Then if you have two kids, maybe you just carry one spare. Or if you are going out for just one night, you take your chances.

just trying to think in the corners of the box a bit here.