Titanium for windscreen, pot support.

[Richard Brownkatz]

I intend making a titanium windscreen and a titanium pot support for my alcohol stove. http://www.titaniumjoe.com/ has recycled titanoium at what seem reasonable prices. He has sheet beginning at .016 inches thick, bars beginning at .01 inches in diameter and tubing beginning at .061 inches inside diameter and .016 inches wall thickness. I need to know how thin a sheet and how small a diameter I can get away with. Any titanium experts out there?
Thanks.

[Colin Krusor]

It is difficult to offer advice knowing nothing of your design.

The thinnest titanium sheet available from titanium joe (0.016") is still much too thick for a windscreen, in my opinion. Titanium sheet in 0.010" and 0.005" thicknesses are often available on ebay, and occasionally 0.001" (I have a roll of 0.001" foil from ebay).

The 0.016" material, or even slightly thicker stock, may be suitable for your pot stand, depending, again, on your design.

Alloy type is also important. The three alloys most commonly found in thin sheets are 6Al4V, 15-3-3-3, and CP2. They all have very different properties.

[Greg Lewis]

Richard,

See the discussion in the gear deals forum on Titanium on ebay. There is some good discussion that got a little off track and would probably have been more appropriate in MYOG. IMO Ti in the .003" or .005" is great for windscreens.

Greg

[Richard Brownkatz]

Thanks guys.
The pot support I'm planning is a simple tripod using t rod or tubing.

[Richard Brownkatz]

"Alloy type is also important. The three alloys most commonly found in thin sheets are 6Al4V, 15-3-3-3, and CP2. They all have very different properties."

Colin, do you have a suggestion about which type would be best for a simple windscreen?

[Javan Dempsey]

TI goat sells .005 thick stuff that is suitable for heavy duty windscreens and caldera cones.

sold to length, two width's 11.75" width is the narrowest.

Prices are very fair.

[Colin Krusor]

Richard,

I agree with Greg and Javan about thickness. The 0.005" material is sturdy enough to bear a load for a caldera cone-like setup, and when rolled up it is resistant to being crushed in your pack. Thinner material can be prone to crumpling and tearing, but might do the job if handled carefully.

Sheet (foil) in this thickness range is usually only available in the 15-3-3-3 and CP2 alloys. The 15-3-3-3 alloy has higher strength and modulus (rigidity), but it is a little more dense and cracks more easily than CP2. The CP2 alloy (like the stuff from Titanium Goat) is very soft and ductile. This wouldn't make much difference for a windscreen in use, but can be important during fabrication. Clean holes can be easily punched in 15-3-3-3 foil, for example, but I've found that CP2 is so soft that punching can sometimes result in tearing and distortion.

[Richard Brownkatz]

Thanks again, everyone.

[Javan Dempsey]

BTW, I just got some of that .003 stuff from ebay that a few people here have been getting.

Here's my take: It's awesome for stove making, but could be easily damaged in other applications. I'm using it doubled up for pot support in a ROF type stove. It's nice and easy to work with, but I wouldn't want a windscreen out of it. Would crimp under any accidental pressure.

That being said, I wish I had ordered more of it.

[Keith Selbo]

I made the firebox of my wood stove from 0.005 Ti from Ti Goat. It holds up a pot with a quart of water in it even when it's red hot. I think that's way more than you'd need for a wind screen unless it's going to double as a pot support.

I suggest you make one out of 0.001 Ti. Make it so you can roll it up and put it in your pot to protect it in your pack. It should weigh next to nothing.

Here's a link to my TI stove thread: Lunar Titan Woodsman Stove

[Kevin Beeden]

I'd agree with the other posts, re. the use of 0.003" or 0.005" foil for windscreens. Thicker than that is unnecessary, and will be getting hard to work.

Of course, it will depend to some extent on your windscreen design. If you use a design that adds rigidity to the foil, such as a cone, or something like my SqueezeBox Stove, then lack of rigidity of the thinner foils will be compensated for by the structural rigidity of the shape.

The Cicerone guidebook author, Paddy Dillon, has made a Ti SBS using foil from TiGoat, and this seems to have been very successful, producing a robust pan support and windshield that doesn't require the careful handling that Al foils require. He sent me a couple of scrap pieces of TiGoat's 0.005" and Suluk46's 0.003" foil, and a folded section of the latter can be flicked with a fingernail hard enough to make me wince, but without any damage at all. An SBS for an MSR Titan kettle in the 0.003" foil would weigh about 42g.

As others have said, Ti foil is much less ductile than Al, and you need to be careful about the minimum bend radii; any attempt to fold either of the above foils back on themselves results in a fracture along the fold, whereas aluminium at a similar thickness would survive, even if hammered flat.

[Kevin Beeden]

Keith, I like the sound of 0.001" Ti foil (a 14g SBS!). Do you know of a source?

[Keith Selbo]

Kevin,

I'm sorry, I don't know any 0.001" Ti sources. Maybe someone else can chime in here.

(If you can't get it,, 0.005 isn't all that heavy. My wind screen is 4 x 19" for a two person pot. It weighs about an ounce.

[Gary Dunckel]

Kevin, the ti windscreens that were sold by BPL a few years back were, according to Roger C., .0012" thick. Maybe you could post a WTB for one. The small ones are 4.125" high x 24" long, and the large ones are 9" high x 32" long. There are ventilations holes in both.

[Steven Evans]

Kevin,
When I was sourcing my foil, I came across these guys who have no minumum order.

http://www.espimetals.com/metals/cattitanium.htm

You can buy pretty much any thickness you want but it's very pricey so it really depends on how badly you want that 14g SBS :)
FWIW and YMMV, when I did some informal testing on varying ti thicknesses, I found that the 0.001" was a bit thin to hold a pot full of water.

[Kevin Beeden]

Thanks for the feedback, chaps. I know how much Ti weighs, and I know that a 70g windshield (the SBS) isn't that heavy. But if I can make one that's 14g…

Steve, I can imagine that 0.001" foil is very feeble, having played with the 0.003", but did you try putting folds in it? I remember you experimented with concertina folds for a wood stove.

Espimetals seem to have changed their sales policy, and will apparently not sell to individuals. Something about 'strategic uses' of the metals…

"An account is required due to the hazardous/strategic nature of the materials we sell. Orders from individuals cannot be accepted."

It's a fair point; I suppose I could be making components of hypersonic attack aircraft in my living room…

[Steven Evans]

Kevin,
Hmmm, it was a while ago so I can't recall but I believe I was going to buy it through work so there was no issue. Sorry about that.

The piece I had was rather small and I didn't do any real testing other then playing with it a bit. IIRC, I was thinking that people may complain that it is too weak to build pot supports. It was also more expensive then the thicker stuff so I wasn't sure there was a market for such an expensive windscreen.

I guess the BPL windscreen has been discontinued?

[Josh Leavitt]

http://www.titaniumsheets.net/index.html These guys might be able to help you.

"An account is required due to the hazardous/strategic nature of the materials we sell. Orders from individuals cannot be accepted."

We provided Ti foil to some goverment contractors a few years ago, when Ti was tripleing in price and was hard to come by. In working with the engineer on the project, it was amazing how much I learned about what Ti could be used for. I learned most of it by the engineer declining to answer a lot of my questions. Its kinda wierd when you sell Ti and carbon fiber, and when you ask them what its for, they tell you that its "priveledged, need to know information"

[Javan Dempsey]

Having worked for the DoD myself in information security, I can tell you that, there's a culture of calling completely useless and probably unclassified info NTK or secret.

Ironically enough, the higher the classification, the harder it seems for people to keep from talking about it. Large DoD contractor's employees love to hype their selves up to be working on super secret spy sht.

So take it with a grain of salt. Ti is so widely used in every industry these days it's not funny.

I've seen the .001 stuff on ebay before, keep your eyes peeled.

[Joshua Griffin]

Richard, have you considered incorporating your potstand and windscreen together to save on weight, pieces, and complexity? I have an alcohol stove and use a windscreen/potstand combo with mine and it works great. Here is what I made: http://mysite.verizon.net/k3ct/Stoves/TurboCatII.htm

The potstand/windscreen is near the bottom

Joshua

[Josh Leavitt]

Javen

Understood, but seriously, I've had MPs with M-16s supervise me and the parts I was working on for entire 10 hour shifts. The parts were delivered with a security detail. Signing non-disclosure statements is much less dramatic.

[Javan Dempsey]

Haha wowzer!

I'm guessing that wasn't all theater then Josh ;)

[Roger Caffin]

re EspiMetals, and "An account is required due to the hazardous/strategic nature of the materials we sell. Orders from individuals cannot be accepted."

Hysterical.
You can buy titanium in BULK in most forms from Titanium Joe with no more than a credit card. I know: I do. Yes, he ships to Australia.

Cheers

[Josh Leavitt]

And they had NO sense of humor.

[Richard Brownkatz]

Richard, have you considered incorporating your potstand and windscreen together to save on weight, pieces, and complexity? I have an alcohol stove and use a windscreen/potstand combo with mine and it works great. Here is what I made: http://mysite.verizon.net/k3ct/Stoves/TurboCatII.htm

The potstand/windscreen is near the bottom

Joshua

Yeah, I'm considering that now. Probably going to experiment with aluminum flashing and coat hanger wire first. Thanks for the link.

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