Sleeping Bag

"Do people usually have a couple of bags that they use in different temperatures?"

For equipment freaks, you can pretty well count on that.

I have about seven sleeping bags in the back room. Two synthetic bags are junk. One -20 F down bag. One -10 F down bag. One ancient down bag. One +25 F down bag, one +32 F down bag.

–B.G.–

"For equipment freaks, you can pretty well count on that."

I guessed that would be the case.

Down has its own problems though, with water. Is there anything else that is better than down in warmer conditions?

Ben:

You can help direct (and narrow) this discussion a bit by stating your budget range, temp range, and desired weight range. Also, let us know how tall and heavy you are.

I'm 174cm tall
Weigh 63kgs
Budget is a bit unkonwn as I dont know how much a good bag will cost. But I have US$800 to spend on 2 bags and 2 mats. (One for me one for the wife).

Temp range is bloody hard to work out. I will be camping with a range from about -5degC to 40degC. So it not easy, I'm not sure that temp I get rid of the bag and just go with a sheet.

I will be getting the Hillebureg GT 2 Tent, with mesh inner. Still looking for a good mat.

"Down has its own problems though, with water. Is there anything else that is better than down in warmer conditions?"

When I first started backpacking about 35 years ago, I had heard all sorts of horror stories about wet down bags. With some of the other pieces of equipment we had back then, getting the down bag damp seemed to be part of the game.

I had one very bad experience with a down bag, and that simply forced me to learn the tricks of keeping it dry. One thing is attitude. You get this paranoia started in your head that water or snow represents a poison that is going to sneak into your tent and ruin the down bag. Then you are constantly working to eliminate that first drop of water or flake of snow. Once you let that paranoia subside, enough of it will remain to keep you water resistant if not water proof. Now I would never use anything except for down, and I never have wet down problems. So, down is great for DRY weather, and it is manageable for DAMP weather. If you know you will have VERY WET weather, then any synthetic may have an advantage over down. It's heavier, but more robust during wetness.
–B.G.–

Conversion: 5’7″, 139lbs.

Here’s one idea: buy 2 bags:

1. MontBell Thermal Sheet – 10C and up for summer use
2. Montbell Spiral Down No. 3 – 0C and up for 3-season use

No. 1 is sized to fit nicely inside No. 2 to boost temperature to -8C or -9C. Of course, you don’t have to buy both bags (or 4 in your case) all at once. You can buy the three-season bag for you and your wife first. But planning ahead, you can build a pretty versatile ‘system’.

Since you are slim, there are other great UL brands/models to choose from as well. Western Mountaineering comes to mind. Well worth looking into.

If you want the very lightest bag for a given warmth — and you want a bag that will last you a long time (when properly cared for) — then I highly recommend getting good quality down bags. Even the best synthetic bags are going to be bulkier and heavier and have shorter lifetimes than good quality down bags.

But what about down getting wet? Modern down bags come with highly water resistant shell fabrics. My MontBell down bags, for example, I can pour one entire glass of water onto the bag — and the water will instantly bead up and flow away — leaving the fabric bone dry!! Now, if it's a standing pool of water, then yes, water will eventually seep through the seams and then the fabric as well — and soak the down inside.

As you can see, down bags are actually quite forgiving — and all you need is exercise common sense care. And if you think about it, even if you were carrying a synthetic bag — you will still be exercising the same care — simply because you would not want to sleep inside a soaking wet bag — down or synthetic.

While Bob had one really bad experience with a down bag, I had an equally bad experience with a synthetic bag..

The reality of wet sleeping bags is this: no matter down or synthetic, it's miserable if your bag is soaked. It's just that depending on temp, your life may be in more or less danger.

It only takes one such experience to learn how to keep your bag dry, no matter what. Synthetic or down, you'll learn that same lesson regardless.

It's when you get into the extended use under specific climate types that the choice becomes more important. Even then, the windows can be kind of narrow. Unless you find yourself constantly in one or the other extreme band, you can get by with either synthetic or down..

I'm not sure of the manufacturers but a few down bags are now made with highly water resistant outer material AND radio wave welded baffle seams instead of sewn seams.

It is sewn seams that let in most water. And this water usually comes from condensation inside the tent.

Eric

"While Bob had one really bad experience with a down bag…"

Winter attempt on Mount Rainier. We camped in deep snow somewhere around 7500' (up from Paradise). Three of us in a two-man tent. The tent owner had brought the inner tent without the fly in order to save weight! It rained on us, which soaked the tent, and the water pooled in the center of the tent's bathtub floor. Who was sleeping there? Me. Once the water was about a half-inch deep, I wanted to punch holes in the floor to let the water drain out, but that was refused by the tent owner. It had started as a 4-pound down sleeping bag, and by morning, it was about 25 pounds of wet sponge on me. I had all of the classic symptoms of hypothermia, and I could not shivver. The other two guys were wise enough to bring bivvy sacks.

Needless to say, I never went climbing with those two again, and I learned how to protect a down bag.
–B.G.–

Ben,

Have you thought about a quilt rather than a bag? I first turned to a quilt as it provides more flexibility, as an example (and I know you can open the zip) with a quilt you can throw it over yourself and either tuck it in if the temps are cold, or leave it a bit loose for the warmer temps, hang your limbs out like I do.

They are also, generally, lighter than a bag.

I use a golite ultra20, and are in WA, suits me fine.

Cheers
Mark

Hi Ben,
I would have a look at Nunatak. I use a Ghost, which works for me in SA but I would want a bit more warmth for Tassie. Something like an alpininist or speciaist with overfill would be great for Tassie. You would probably be using it in conjunction with clothing at the coldest temps, and when it gets warmer you could use as a quilt without the straps connected. I can kick my legs out of mine without undoing any straps, makes for easy temp regulation. You could cut the budget a bit by going for a POE Ether Thermo mattress – they are relatively cheap over here. Thermarest NeoAir's over here are the same price as a return flight to Asia!

Ben,

Where and when are you planning on taking your first trip?

That's a pretty good way to choose a bag.

There should be no problem for you both using a down bag in a Hilleberg. You would need to work pretty hard to get it wet enough to be a problem in there, and the weight and comfort range of a synthetic just won't compare.

If you're planning on mostly camping with your wife, you might consider getting two light weight bags for summer, and a light quilt to go over the both of you in your summer bags, for when it gets colder.

The other plan is to use a down filled mat to help boost the temp rating of your bags.

I'm within a couple of centimetres and a couple of kilos of you and this is what my wife and I use.

Summer trip
Me Western Mountaineering Summerlite plus Big Agnes insulated mat
Wife who sleeps cold Western Mountaineering Apache plus Big Agnes insulated mat

Often I unzip the Summerlite and use it as a quilt/sheet

Winter trip no snow -5C
Me Western Mountaineering Summerlite plus Exped Down 7 insulated mat
Wife stays home under doona

Winter trip snow -5C to -15C
Me Western Mountaineering Apache plus Exped Down 7 insulated mat
Wife stays home under doona with electric blanket on

I reckon if you went with a WM Summerlite, Megalite or Ultralite, you should be fine. If your wife is a cold sleeper, get her the next rating down to yours. If you're over thirty and haven't done much walking, I would definitely get a pair of blow up matresses (Big Agnes, Downmat, POE Ether or Neo) rather than self inflaters (Thermarest etc) The comfort really can't be compared. If you're still under thirty, you can probably still tough it out on a Thermarest.

Paddy Pallin's in the city or Glenferrie Rd stock most of these and Bogong and/or the Wilderness Shop in Box Hill have the rest. You'll need to order on-line from the US though, if you want to keep it under US $1000.

Stick up another thread when you're ready to order and we might be able to make suggestions of on-line retailers we've had success with.

Rod

I'm new to backpacking, but why would you not just pick a warm weather bag (something like the Marmot Neversummer 0 deg for ~ $250) and just keep it unzipped in warmer weather? This way you meet your budget needs and have to buy just one bag.

I don't know what Marmot calls it, but REI sells it as "average weight 4 pounds."

I don't care about the next guy, but I am sure not going to haul a 4 pound bag around with me in the summer. My existing summer bag is 1 pound 7 oz.

The only time I use my real 4-pound down bag is when I know that I will be in serious sub-zero F conditions. When it was new, it was rated at -20 F, but that was thirty years ago when bag shell fabrics were thicker.
–B.G.–

It wouldn't kill you to use a 0F bag in summer nights, but you may find yourself constantly waking up — too hot, kick away the bag — then too cold again — repeatedly.

Also, if budget allows, carrying a hoodless summer bag like the Montbell Thermal Sheet I mentioned above can save you a lot of pack space and weight — 4lbs versus 14 ounces!

Unless someone thinks its a bad Idea.

I like this combo
MontBell UL Super Stretch Down Hugger #3
MontBell U.L. Spiral Down Hugger Thermal Sheet

Can get one of these mats for free with it as well.
Exped SynMat Pump 7 or Big Agnes Insulated Air Core.

Can just use the Thermal sheet in hot weather (10+degC)
Use Hugger #3 when cold (Down to 0) and then combine them when it gets even colder…

With the matts, what one would you choose?

Ben, Yes for temps ranges like you have described most of us will have at least 2 bags (23F-104F). I have found quilts to provide the widest range in comfort because you can vent them so easily or lay them out flat.

If you are interested in quilts I have found the Jacks-R-Better quilts to be extremely versatile. The sierra no-sniveller is a great option down to your lower limit (-5C) and can be opened up flat as a blanket for warmer temps. The best option for sub freezing to hot nights is both a no-sniveller ($270) and a stealth quilt ($210). Right now JRB is having a valentines day sale buy one get a second quilt at half off (ends tomorrow). For comparison I have used most of the quilt mentioned (golite ultra 20, JRB stealth, Nunatak ghost, and montbell thermal sheet).

If you find sleeping bags more comfortable then the bags Ben recommeds are a great option. I have used the thermal sheet for warm weather camping and it is an incredible bag for the weight. Another sleeping bag I have used that is extremely light and versatile is the marmot hydrogen currently on sale for $255 at backcountrygear.com. It is a 30F bag but can easily go lower with a jacket on.

Jamie

> Unless someone thinks its a bad Idea.

Not a bad idea at all but…

>I like this combo
>MontBell UL Super Stretch Down Hugger #3
>MontBell U.L. Spiral Down Hugger Thermal Sheet

If you are after a montbell bag in that range I would get a #2 SS UL down hugger. #2 and lower all have neck baffles and the #3 does not and that makes a pretty big difference IMO when its really cold. Solid 25dF rating. A MB #2 drapped over with my feet hanging out is okay for me at 70dF so they breath really well.

The DWR is superb. I have used mine in 45dF heavy dew weather in the open. Dries as soon as the sun hits it. If you dont mind a tighter bag a #1 spiral weighs just a tad more I think. Down side is only right zippers on the Spiral. At least that is what I was told.

The thermal sheet is not a bad idea either. I dont like bags inside of bags that much though. I prefer high quality insulated synthetic clothing as double duty and I also carry a med adv emer thermal bivy to use inside in case I get caught out by surprise in colder than expected conditions. Not the mylar one, but the 7 oz one thats blue cloth/paper like inside. I modified it so it will open up completely. This one.

http://www.adventuremedicalkits.com/product.php?product=146&catname=Essentials&prodname=S.O.L.%20Thermal%20Bivvy

A MYOG 1.25 oz tyvek bivy would add another 5dF and extra
saftey from water.

To me if I am going to carry an extra insulated bag for colder weather than 25dF it makes more sense to carry a synthetic overquilt that works with your bag girth and that way in very cold weather it moves the condensation into the synthetic bag instead of the down bag.

Also I would rather have a thin, like 2.5oz climashield XP quilt for summer when its hot and humid a lot. Tim M could probably build you one that would weigh about 12-14oz.

>Can get one of these mats for free with it as well.
Exped SynMat Pump 7 or Big Agnes Insulated Air Core.

I had a synmat 7 and its a very very warm pad to me. It was actually too warm for me for summer.

For me a batter option is a neoair or other thermarest like a prolite 3 and a cheapo 1/2 or 3/4 length bluepad. Bluepad comes in handy for a sitting pad, helps protect your inflatable and if your inflatable dies at 3 am at least you have something for insul. A regular lentgh prolite or a regular neoair + a bue pad weighs less than a Synmat 7. I also think the neoair on a blue pad is more comfortable than a synmat 7, but thats just me.

Synmat 7 for free is hard to pass up though.

I've thought alot about sleeping bags lately. It takes quite abit of weight to get lower than 0 deg. C. And for most people, they won't normally be out much (if at all)when it's colder. But they'll be out a lot when it's warmer. So I think people should focus on the best solution for the bulk of their time outdoors. That means to get something lightweight that is rated to about 0 deg. C (32F).

I have a Western Mountaineering Megalite I love, but it's way too wide for you. With Western Mountaineering, you should go for the Highlite (455g.,2C,35F), Summerlite (540g.,0C,32F), as they will cover most of your temperature needs. The WM Ultralite (825g.,-7C,20F) will cover the whole range, but has a 285g./10oz. weight penalty over the Summerlite, and may be too warm sometimes.

Here's a thread discussing them.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/26388/index.html?skip_to_post=217723#217723

Nunatak is the best in my book. I have an Arc Alpinist (-7C,20F) that weighs 600g.,21oz. I'd recommend an Arc Ghost 455g./16oz or Arc Edge 313g./11 oz for as lean as you are.

However, having said all that, I think you could spend far less to begin with, and then as you gain experience—time in the field outdoors, you could refine your systems if needed. Although I feel Nunatak and Western Mountaineering are the creme de la creme, there are many other great options for a lot less money (several of which I have as well).

Look at this very recent "Cheaper Summer Bags" thread for some ideas.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=29130

The LaFuma Extreme 600 +45 (7C) would cover maybe 90% of the temperature needs for only $30 from REI. That's cheap. That leaves plenty of $$$ to add another colder bag later. Nicer down bags on sale right now that would last longer and take you colder are the Mountain Hardware Phantom 32, Rab Quantum 250 Endurance (179.97) or the 400 ($209.97)

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=29257

http://www.campsaver.com/itemmatrix.asp?GroupCode=rab0037&MatrixType=1

and the GoLite Venture ($162.50) for you and a GoLite Adrenaline 40°F for her or a GoLite 20°F Venture for her $211.25, all from STP.

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/search/SearchResults.aspx?allwords=golite%20sleeping%20bag&searchdescriptions=True

Let us know what you decide.