Philmont gear selection..

>I am gradually committing myself to lightweight backpacking and the first item to go will be my MountainSmith backpack.

Just a suggestion (originally from Karen Berger): you might want to make your pack and your shoes the last two items you replace. By the time you've worked out all of your other equipment, you might find that your pack requirements are different than you anticipated. I was going to replace my 8-pound pack with a 3-pound pack because I was anticipating carrying about 30 pounds and thought I needed an internal frame, but after I dropped another five pounds of base weight I now use a 2-pound frameless pack (GossamerGear Mariposa Plus) to carry 25 pounds in perfect comfort.

Wow. A lot has changed since the late 80's. I did not know about all the rules now. I also read a few months ago that there is a waiting list a mile long just to get in Philmont. Any truth to that?
We only saw one brown bear and it was moving the other way fast!
When I went to Philmont they issued us the green Eureka tents. I guess they don't do that anymore!
Oh. Hi too, I just signed on.

Alan, yes a few things have changed.
> I also read a few months ago that there is a waiting list a mile long just to get in Philmont. Any truth to that?

We just received notification in December that our troop will be going in 2008. That's the first time our troop has received a lottery slot in 4 years. The system does allow that you get an almost guaranteed chance to go if you haven't been in 5 years. The waiting list each year is over 1,000 units.

> When I went to Philmont they issued us the green Eureka tents. I guess they don't do that anymore!

Well, you can use their gear. But you don't have to. Doug Prosser's article gives some great guidance on what's acceptable.

I am a Varsity Team Coach to a group of older boys (>14 years of age) in Scouts. I have yet to get a group that will boy-run themselves to Philmont but I see a lot of parents that fully expect me to have a plan worked out to get their son there. I am consistently disappointed that the parent's don't understand that I am not a babysitter or tour guide and that it's not my team… it's the boys. Anyway, I would love to get a group to go to Philmont, especially since I didn't get to go as a scout myself, but given the nature of the program I am in it won't happen.

Here is a question that might spark some debate. "Bang for your buck" (where buck could = time) is Philmont REALLY worth it or can you have a much better time/experience elsewhere? Sacrilege, I know, but I think it's fair to ask… especially since I never got to go as a Scout.

Fair question James. I think Philmont is an excellent opportunity for the boys and adults(that are interested in backpacking). You end up in many different situations where the boys have to make time critical decisions.

From what you've indicated, it sounds like the real issue is getting the boys motivated to want to go themselves, and getting the support of the parents.

You shouldn't be a babysitter, and you should have parents supporting the program. Further, it sounds like the boys need to be leading the effort with your guidance.
Why not start out with an open ended approach: Sit them all down and ask them what do they need to do to go to Philmont? OK, who can take care of that? What else? Who will volunteer to take care of that…… and so on.

If you're doing all the work, they're missing out on a big part of the experience.

I hope that helps. It is an excellent experience, and as Robert Gates, current DefSec said, "everything I needed to learn about management I learned at Philmont". A sharp crew leader has that chance.

MikeB

James,

Is Philmont worth it? I might know at the end of July when I get back from my first trek but folks I respect (and who are also not died in the wool, everything about scouting is great types) say it is, so I'm Philmont bound after passing up a few opportunities.

On the topic of "youth led troop" … take the following with lots of salt, especially since I know nothing about your particular BSA unit, but …

After a couple decades of scouting I still have more than a few struggles with and a few observations about the "youth led troop". I've started to write a summary of my thoughts on the subject but it's no where near draft status even. Here are some bullet points:

* One in every several hundred (few thousand??) scouts arrives out of the box as a highly competent, self assured leader.
* The rest require varying degrees of development, in many (most?) cases a lot of development
* Because of the above, "youth led troop" most definitely does not mean "scouts doing what comes naturally"
* If the above were not true we could use the $$ spent on scouting for any number of better uses.
* as scouts develop, they tend to emulate what they see in older scouts and do the activities they see the other scouts do, success breeds success and less success breeds less success
* building and maintaining success comes from us coaching the scouts
* sometimes, getting that initial level of success can involve adult leaders temporarily acting in youth leadership roles while coaching the youth replacement

Wishing you good luck, success and enjoyment in your scouting endeavors

Jim, I really appreciate your post. Many of your thoughts echo my own. I like the concept of "boy run" and have tried to adopt some of these themes for my group. However, I have found that the most significant resource that is squandered is… my time. I just get weary of spending my time coaxing the boys to run their troop. What is the point of volunteering if the people you are volunteering for don't really seem to value your efforts? That is actually unfair of me to say this since the boys get me a Christmas gift every year and say things sometimes that almost bring tears to my eyes (those "special moments" that keep you going even though it sometimes seems pointless). I think I made my point, however harsh I was on conveying it.

I have been to numerous leader training events and I like the analogy of the pendulum… boy led at one extreme and adult led at the other. A troop swings from one to the other with different levels of involvement as it moves back and forth over time. The trick, and I have not gotten to where I am good at this, is to know where you are at in the cycle based on the many parameters that make a team go.

I am told, by a Scout Master I greatly respect, that I am young and need more time in the role of Varsity Coach. I guess there is no substitute for experience. :)

What is the point of volunteering if the people you are volunteering for don't really seem to value your efforts?

I hear ya on that. I keep reminding myself to appreciate the kids I reach … it's a St. Francis prayer thing.

Having been to Philmont in 97 and 99 and having walked for 3 hours in a down pour; I would caution against recommending any gear that might not make it through the trip. If you look at the Philmont website you will see the enterance with the boots and shoes that failed. While keeping your pack as light as possible is a given. I believe that training and conditioning is the reason for adult/scout failure at Philmont. Training should be done with more weight than you expect to pack at Philmont. You should be able to carry a relative heavy pack up 4000 ft in four miles and back down again, and still be ready to go. There is a lot of information like "Training to climb Mt. Rainier or other high peaks". If you have been inactive you will need to start training at least two years prior to going to Philmont, and you will need to dedicate 3 days a week to conditioning. Remember as adults you are taking some one elses boy, you cannot fail. You cannot substitute light gear for conditioning. Just think if you can easly carry that heavy pack; then you will have no problem carring the light one.

It is interesting that Philmont states that you cannot use tarps. In 1994, I think, I did Philmont Trail Crew. In this program we built new trail for 14 days and then hiked for 10. During the 10 hike out group of 10-12 boys and two Philmont leaders used tarps, one boy hiked with Tevas for several days after getting bad blisters. Maybe this was allowed because we were apart of the Trail Crew and had Philmont staff with us the entire trip, I don't know.

We never saw a bear the entire 24 days is the backcountry. We did get mildly hypothermic one day after a cold rain storm, but we were fine.

Philmont is a magical place I have been trying to get back to for years. I hope to have a son so I can go sometime in the future. For those that have not been or know what Philmont is, think of it as backcounty Disneyland.

Great comments from everyone, not to mention fond memories. Went twice, 1957 and 1967 and just have two recommendations to elaborate on remarks already made. Trails differ all over Philmont – the rocky ones going down hill are foot killers if you don't have solidly built soles, vibram comes to mind. Our scout professional was enthusiastic for inexpensive work brogans with soft soles. They were OK on nice soil trails but were torture when the trail turned to rock or heavy "gravel". The Merrils mentioned earlier, while lightweight, have good solid soles. On both trips we lost boys because of exuberant play – one broke a toe on a tent peg while running, and another opened his kneee on a discarded tin can in a camp trash pile while playing capture the flag. We hated to see these lads loose their experience – and it is here where the leaders can help by being aware of the threat and attempting to make sure these boys exuberance and energy don't wreck it all for themselves.

Thank you Doug!

I am a 20 year old, Girl Scout, that will be working as a program counselor in the back country at Philmont in 2007 and found your article very informational. I am looking forward to this summer and can't wait to get out to Philmont. I have never been to Philmont before but my boyfriend, his brothers, my brothers, and numerous other friends have been … I have heard nothing but amazing stories.

Thanks again for the information & good luck on your trek in July.

I am preparing a crew for Philmont. We asked about floors and were told they were required although nothing in the literature defines tent as a shelter with a floor. Can the author offer insight into how to confirm that floors are or are not required.

On tents being more bear safe than tarps, can someone point to the data. It sounds like hearsay.

As far as Philmont is concerned, the only scenario I can build is that if the cooking and eating is done near the dining tarps, and not near the tents, then the tents are safer because of their greater distance from the food smells.

Since much of bear behavior is learned, I supposed you could also make a case that the Philmont bears have been trained that there is never food in the tents, therefore the tents are safer.

Philmont runs over 30,000 scouts and adults through the backpacking program every summer. The only reason that makes sense to me about the use of tents and floors is the it can be closed up. BSA always thinks of the saftey of the participants first. Most tents that can be closed up have a inner tent cover by a rainfly. This inner tent keeps the bugs,and "mini-bears" out of your sleeping area. The zoonology of this is to prevent disease from spreading from the mice and other creatures that might just wander on to your sleeping bag and leave some "deposits". Those "deposits" like mouse urine can carry viruses that you really don't want to be breathing.

Philmont always requires a dinning tarp to store your pack and other items that might still have some residual smells. If a bear has investigated and found something under a tarp, then he has been trained to look under a tarp. Even if the tarp has no smells, the bears courious nature might lead it to investigate a tarp.

I feel that keeping the "mini-bears" out of the sleeping areas are probably the most likely.

All part of the experience…get out there and get into it!

"COUCH"

There have been a few comments that Scouts may not be capable of properly handling/protecting ultralight gear such as tents, backpacks and sleeping bags. Before committing our troop to this type of equipment I would like to hear comments. We are planning for June 2008.

>…Scouts may not be capable of properly handling/protecting ultralight gear…

Capable, yes; motivated, maybe not. You've got plenty of time, so have them make their own tents, packs, quilts, etc., and then they'll take care of them!

I have had a number of emails concerning Philmont questioning the Keva, Betamid tents. They never had any issues with these tents. In 2007 The Scotmaster & myself will be using a Metamid which may get us a bit more room.

First, a note on Philmont weather. Philmont experiences a monsoon in late July and early August. If your trek is a late 72x or an 80x or 81x (i.e., starting in late July or early August), plan for more than just the brief afternoon thunderstorm. (We were 803-E in 2005, and had three solid days of rain early in the trek, and a day of cold, driving rain late. Great experience nonetheless!)

Second, david edelstein asked whether "Scouts may not be capable of properly handling/protecting ultralight gear…" If they're trained well and have experience with it, yes. At least, the Scouts in my troop who are old enough and experienced enough for Philmont will, given training and experience.

Besides, there's a great piece of motivation. Load one pack with lightweight gear and another with more conventional gear. Don't just stop there: include all the little single-purpose gadgets and such in a conventional load. Then, add fuel and a four days' supply of food (fake it with ballast). Now, ask each Scout which pack he (or she, if you've a co-ed Venturing crew) would rather carry. Explain what that means regarding care for gear.

("I…want to go baaaack to Philmont!")

There was a comment about floors being required at Philmont. In 2004 we used a home made 2 man Shires Tarptent which has no floor and there were no problems. The Philmont staff accepted it (before we left home I verified we could use it). It, in fact, worked flawlessly. We laid the ground cloth over the netting flaps and had the equivalent of a floor anyway. One camp site had a serious mosquito population and we appreciated the netting walls. If I was going again I would carry this shelter or a similar one without hesitation.

I have another equipment question. Philmont supplies the crews with relatively heavy 6-8 qt. and a 4 qt. pots. What are people using these days? Any alternatives? Also, the MSR simmerlite is the lightest white gas stove but is it advisable? What about the Dragonfly, EGX or the Whisperlite? I have some concerns about pot stability and flame adjustability.

Philmont gives you a bunch of food. You can cook it as a crew, or you can break the crew up into smaller cook groups.

If you've a relatively small crew (e.g., 7-9), you can get by pretty easily doing as we did on a 50 Miler with a crew of 9: three groups, each rotating among cooking, cleaning, and water duties. We had, if I recall, three MSR stoves, though I think two will do fine at Philmont. We used normal smaller backpacking-size pots (~1.5-2 liters), and they work fine on the Dragonfly, Whisperlite, and Simmerlite.

As I recall from our trek (2005), all the dinners were just add boiling water (or maybe cold water for one of the horrendously bad desserts!), stir, and wait.

Several option are available:
1: chair converters for most of the self inflatables can be purchased for around $20-$25 from a number of online stores. Campmor is one. These converters turn your mat into a very comfortable chair and weigh about 14oz.
2: a Sling Light chair which weighs about 20oz and can be strapped to the back of a pack very easily. These have become pretty dear to purchase, about $100, but those of us who own one swear by them and have to carry sidearms when out because so many people want to "try" them out. Available here with pictures:
http://www.slinglight.com/

Weighing in at 2 lb 4 oz is the trail sling. It is similar to the sling light without the headrest. It is also trickier to setup.

http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=39192811&memberId=12500226&storeId=226&catalogId=40000000226&langId=-1

Only 20.00

Hi guys i have been a member here for a while now and just noticed this discussion. I am currently working at the Double H high adventure base about 5 hours south of philmont. I know some of you are active in the scouts whether it be through your sons or that you are an adult leader. I highly encourage you all to try and come to the double H high adventure base. Having been to philmont before I can tell you that this place is 10x better. If you have any questions about philmont or the double H i would be more than happy to answer them. e-mail me at kayak101187@aol.com