The power of Down Fill

Why not consider the 725fp Montbell bags? No one compares the less expensive, lower FP MB bags to the higher FP down bags. That’s like comparing lemons to limes, or oranges to grapefruits – close, but not exactly the right comparison to make. Compare those lower FP bags to lower FP bags from other big name Mfr’s – some of them also have a lower FP (550-650 FP) line. Compare the top-of-the-line MB 725fp bags to the WM bags. I agree with you, I never consider purchasing a 550-650 FP bag. I just save my pennies longer and get a bag with higher FP down.

My understanding is that MB tests their down to a more stringent European standard than WM and what American manufacturers are calling 800-900+ FP would only test at about 750 by European standard. The additional pre-test “fluffing” performed by American Mfr’s to obtain 800-900+ FP is immediately lost when the down is sewn into a garment or bag.

I own both the WM Highlite-short (1oz lighter than the regular length Highlite) and several MB bags – all 725FP bags. The difference is actually not that great (4-6oz depending upon model – with 2oz of that weight due to the SuperStretch feature and some of the weight due to a full zip vs. the short zips on the ligher WM bags – the full zip provides better ventilation options) for similar warmth, IME. My MB SSDH#3 is much warmer than my WM Highlite for only 8oz more wt and a more usable bag. I don’t own the #4 which is really a closer match to the WM bag – lighter and less down than the #3, but still more down than my Highlite-short bag.

The hood design of the MB bags is superior to the WM Highlite. For me this is important, but may not be as important a feature to others.

My #5 is only 4oz heavier (the non-super stretch version is only 2oz heavier than the Highlite-short) and is almost as warm, but not quite, IME – about a 5deg difference.

I still believe that WM is the standard by which all others should be judged. Whenever I consider a bag, if it’s not a WM bag, I compare the others to the competing WM bag to see how it measures up. When I want to go as light as possible, the WM Highlite is my “go-to” bag. Usually, I choose a MB bag though due to its features and ease of use. My two shekels. YMMV.

Enjoy your WM bag – they’re great bags.

I agree that it is not a fair comparison and think I said as much in my initial post. I was just awstruck by the difference in feathers and what that can mean. I don’t care to debate standards by which things are measured, etc. but tend to think that the best way to compare bags is to touch and feel in person.

The only real comparison came to me based on a cost analysis. I bought the Montbell bag last year. Liked it very much. It cost me $150. I found the WM lightly used for $180, and bought it. I sold the Montbell on Ebay for $145.60 since I cannot afford to invest in multiple bags…and think for the extra $30+ I have a bag that weighs nearly 10 ounces less and just seems to be nearly twice the amount of down when you lay them next to each other.
If I find that I really miss the stretch feature, I may end up going back to a Montbell with higher fill in the future. I am not certain the stretch really makes a difference for me yet though. My sleep movements tend to be side to front to side, with little arm movements…and the stretch bag just rotates with you just like a regular snug fitting bag would.
One other thing that sticks out in my mind. Last spring when I started the process of buying a bag, I asked Montbell where I could see a bag before buying. They told me Feathered Friends in Santa Cruz would have them. I called the store and they said they no longer carried them because the fill was not up to their standards. He referenced the more expensive brands and I tuned out because I did not want to spend close to $300 for a bag. In retrospect, I think there may be something to being a down snob.

I would like to point out that in mont bell bags, the insulation is not 100% down, it is about 90. the other 10 is feathers.

one down side to mont bell

I’m led to understand that all down has some feather content. Even my WM and FF bags have feathers poke through the shell at some time or another.

There’s definitely more to down than feather content. Where did the geese come from, how were they raised, how was the down collected and processed, how was it sorted and rated and what QA/QC occurred at the bag manufacturers all come to mind.

As to MB down quality, I don’t find mine (a 725 ci bag) comes close to matching my WM, FF or Mountainsmith bags’ down in either loft or compression rebound. And I can feel ample feather quills in it. However, other MB bag owners report their down quality is very good. This leads me to suspect that there might be less QA/QC of the down at the factory than at WM and FF, leading to variation.

The good news is that if your local outfitter carries them, you can check specific bags at the store for fill quality and amount.

RyanF, 90/10 is pretty standard – some are worse – I’ve seen 80/20 and once even lower levels of down; only a very few, IME, claim 95/5 -saw it only once and can’t remember where. It’s really not a downside at all – just the normal state of affairs.

Rick, Thanks for the reminder on “compression rebound”. I’ve yet to check this on my MB vs one WM bag in a side-by-side comparison test.

As to loft, my #3 has 9.5oz of down cp to 7oz for my WM Highlite-short and has more perceived visual loft when both are laying side-by-side. Of course, the #3 is 8oz heavier and, IME, is a warmer bag, so it’s NOT a fair comparision. I don’t have a #4 to perform a more proper, closer comparison.

My WM Highlite really doesn’t have much loft at all either – it’s surprising that it is as warm as it is. I’m very happy with it. That said, the MB #7 (a 50deg summer bag) looks anorexic – but does work down to 50deg. The #5 looks pretty thin too.

Your other point on quality and variation is quite good too – makes one think twice, hmm…

Hi Paul,

You’ve taken a #7 to 50? That’s great, if so.

My #5 is definitely not a 40-deg bag, as indicated by their “comfortable temp” 42.8 deg rating. Low 50s is about it without wearing lots of clothing to bed, which luckily is a forte of the stretchy design!

Rick, On the trail, I usually wear base-layer and a non-hi-loft mid layer to bed – usually just what I’m wearing on the trail sans windshirt. If I’m pushing it, I wear a Cocoon or Thermawrap + Thermawrap bottom when it’s cold. I consider myself a cold sleeper (e.g. when at home, i wear socks to bed most of the year other than the 3 summer months – sock weight varies depending upon time of year; probably 6-7mos of the year, i wear something on my head also when sleeping, beside normal bedding including a quilt in colder months).

For me, my #5 is a 40deg bag with my normal bedtime clothing, but not less .

The Highlite is a legitimate 35deg bag for me. I’ve had it down to 25 with base+mid+hi-loft (tops+bottoms) and down socks over sleep socks, plus heavy gorilla ‘clava, but I was cold and didn’t sleep very well – too much shivering, and wouldn’t want to do it again.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the “quality” comment. You may have gotten a “bad” bag. Recently found out my TNF Equinox (Mfr rated 35, but 45 for me) may be a “bad” bag as others have different results.

I’ve recently ordered a #2 Long, and will report on the down quality, loft, and rebound as soon as it arrives. The tall sizes have are backordered right now, so it might be a while…

I also own both a WM bag (Versalite) and a Montbell (SS #4). The WM bag is of far superior quality IMO. The zipper on the Montbell is prone to snagging, the baffles are unequally filled, and the temp rating of 38 is 5-10 degress optimistic IMO. That being said I do love the stretch feature.

Here’s a Montbell success story I came across a few minutes ago. Seems atypical, and beyond the range of a “quality” issue, but at least someone has some success with a MB bag besides mine own limited experience and more moderate success. Wonder what else was being worn inside of the bag?

Montbell#2

Hi Paul,

If you wouldn’t mind, could you measure the total loft of your #5 to compare it with mine?

Mine measures 4 inches in most areas, with a couple areas measuring 4.5 inches. (Measured in half a dozen spots with an empty file folder placed atop the fluffed bag.)

Also, after fluffing there are visible gaps in at least half the individual baffle cells, with a few only half-filled.

Thanks,

Rick

Rick,

I’ll get it out of the gear closet and measure it. However, 4″ is a lot of loft. That’s the typical loft for 30deg F bag. Three inches loft is more typical for a 40-45deg bag. WM Highlite is listed as having 3.5″ of total loft and it’s rated for 35deg. If yours really has that much loft, then it must be that it’s not distributed properly – too much in some places and the gaps you mentioned in other places. No wonder it’s not up to par. We’re talkin’ #5 right? That’s a 40deg bag for me with a couple of non-lofting layers on.

I’ll get that measurement back to you later when I’m home from work. Gotta’ go – lunchtime is over.

Thanks Paul, I’ll look forward to your observations.

My measurements, I’ll have to say, are absolutely the greatest I could generate–vigorously fluffing the bag, laying it down and carefully leveling the folder atop w/o pressing downward. I don’t know whether this matches any sort of standard, and confess ignorance as to how advertised loft #s are established.

FWIW if I press the folder flat to the floor and release it, after two minutes the loft rebounds to about an inch and a half.

–Rick

Rick,

Ok. Decided to start my 3-day early and not work any OT, so left after putting in my 8hrs.

I didn’t do any fluffing – 30-60 seconds after laying the bag out, I measured 3″ of total loft in some places and 3.5″ in other places. Several Mfr’s list 3″ for their 45deg bags and 3.5″ for their 35deg bags.

Mine looked nicely distributed. Only used the bag a few times last year, but will be using it again once nights are warmer in a few weeks (we’re still getting near freezing lows at night).

Might be the uneven distribution in your bag??? Is yours the 725fp or the 650fp version?

Based upon your experience, I guess I’ll be more careful recommending MB bags to others lest they suffer from a similar experience to yours.

BTW, did you see that #2 -6degF testimonial link in my other post? Unusual, to say the least.

Take care and have a great weekend,
pj

Thanks for the follow-up, Paul.

FWIW mine’s a 725 edition, Alpine SS Down Hugger of the zipperless variety.

I’m also impressed by the report you link. That’s very impressive, especially if it’s replicable.

–Rick

Rick, if you haven’t done so already, check the link again and VIEW the THREAD – specifically, the response to a query from some guy with a chinese name who asked about what clothing was worn and other conditions. The original fellow’s response to those questions are very informative. The results would NOT be replicable by me. I, for one, know that I’d be an old-geezer-sickle come morning if I used a #2 at -6degF.